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From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:39:23 GMT
Hi Luke:

This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members list
was added somewhere on the line.

Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the past, a
good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
for example, on the user list.

As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ, WeChat,
and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be a
thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how to
we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything happens
on the mailing lists" principle?

Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of the
discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.

However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
"everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when there's
a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
invisible to the rest of us.

So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ, etc.
in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's going
on.

Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities exist
in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of learning
Chinese that is. :)

My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
group but that seems way too little...

Thanks,

Gunnar



On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com> wrote:

> > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means
> > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> So, I
> > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> that
> > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that was
> > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than shut
> it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
>
> And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or Users?
> That's totally different arguments.
>
> Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas for
> you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing list
> and
> asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too) had
> tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And we
> tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> have a
> simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> Language
> of the question.
> Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs should
> keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent others
> who
> want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
>
> Why English?
> It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
>
>
> On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to learn
> and
> try new technology with their native language so that they could understand
> quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good enough
> at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is the
> right
> thing they should to do to get help.
>
> For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then developers.
> We
> shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually nothing
> we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active who
> are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question there
> but
> will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to mailing
> list
> because they already could help each other.
>
> Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people and
> more in QQ groups.
>
> One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product, something
> like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of such
> accounts...
>
> Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
>
> Why Chinese?
> To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter where's
> project coming from.
>
>
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other lists?
> I
> > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to get
> > help. The support side if you will.
> >
> > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate means to
> > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> So, I
> > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group so
> > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> that
> > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> >
> > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users aren't
> > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help identify
> > what would work for those users.
> >
> > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > discussion thread on that topic.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> Thus
> >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> think
> >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> borders
> >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell
> you
> >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> discussion
> >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you
> want
> >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> >>
> >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
> >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This
> >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when
> >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In
> the
> >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC
> or,
> >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> >>
> >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> that
> >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> think
> >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> >> interested in why.
> >>
> >> Just my usual .02.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about
> >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> >> >
> >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
> >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> >> >
> >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non
> >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> > Adding members@
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:
> >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
it
> >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> in
> >> > > English?
> >> > >
> >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> >> English
> >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> >> when it
> >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much
> >> lower
> >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> >> English
> >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> >> > >
> >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> >> exclude
> >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number of
> >> native
> >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> >> according
> >> > > to Wikipedia.
> >> > >
> >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org>> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem (maybe
> not
> >> > >> real,
> >> > >> but just
> >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all contributions
> >> from
> >> > >> China,
> >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from Chinese
> and
> >> LABEL
> >> > >> for such
> >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> >> "issue" to
> >> > >> describe like
> >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
or
> >> > >> others...
> >> > >> that's not right way.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they
are
> >> > >> contributing to
> >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very much,
> >> > >> involved
> >> > >> in many
> >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
days
> >> > >> mailing
> >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
> [1]:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> >> > >>
> >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these projects,
> >> you
> >> > >> could check
> >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within mailing
> >> list.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out
a
> way
> >> to
> >> > >> access
> >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> >> speakers,
> >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the Apache
> >> Way.
> >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate global
> >> > >> community, and try
> >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have
the
> >> patience
> >> > >> for
> >> > >> those new comers.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know our
> >> journey,
> >> > >> our experience
> >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> >> > >> challenges...through
> >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also helping
> >> many
> >> > >> potential projects
> >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like "Help
> >> > >> Trafodion
> >> > >> community"
> >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> >> Trafodion
> >> > >> PMC
> >> > >> know
> >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> >> articles,
> >> > >> session recordings and
> >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to face
> >> > >> discussion
> >> > >> if necessary:-)
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>
 <
> >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hi,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> contribution
> >> from
> >> > >> > China.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors aren't
> that
> >> > >> active
> >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ communicating
> in
> >> > >> > Chinese.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
hard
> >> not to
> >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> >> questions etc
> >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> >> forward,
> >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> members
> >> in
> >> > >> China
> >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> >> issues like
> >> > >> > this.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Thanks,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Gunnar
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
couple
> of
> >> > >> years
> >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in
open
> >> source
> >> > >> beyond
> >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact finding
> >> trip to
> >> > >> > China.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
talked
> >> to. We
> >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> >> involved
> >> > >> with
> >> > >> > this proposal.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> project
> >> and
> >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the foundation.
We
> >> will
> >> > >> need
> >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
China
> >> born
> >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences
that we
> >> need
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> >> foundation
> >> > >> and as
> >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way. Having
> met
> >> some
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
the
> >> > >> project
> >> > >> > can succeed.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Ross
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ---
> >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ________________________________
> >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general@incubator.apac
> >> he.org>
> >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Hi John,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> >> constructive
> >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal
and
> >> project
> >> > >> using
> >> > >> > your suggestions.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread
by Von
> >> Gosling,
> >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
the
> >> Github
> >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
the
> >> history
> >> > >> > was
> >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that someone's
> >> git-fu
> >> > >> went
> >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
Von
> >> also
> >> > >> gives
> >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response
below.
> >> Indeed,
> >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
before
> >> with
> >> > >> git),
> >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF
to
> >> improve
> >> > >> and
> >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> since
> >> > >> Bruce is
> >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the
ASF
> >> exist
> >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs
good
> >> mentors,
> >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not.
My
> >> interest in
> >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
in
> >> > >> continuing
> >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
years
> >> > >> experience
> >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project
> >> over
> >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> >> community of
> >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
The
> ASF
> >> is an
> >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
from
> new
> >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
and
> >> stay for
> >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> >> project and
> >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both
good
> >> > >> suggestions
> >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve
the
> >> proposal.
> >> > >> Even
> >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would
also be
> >> great
> >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> moving
> >> > >> forward.
> >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
you
> >> > >> mentioned
> >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on
the
> >> RocketMQ
> >> > >> code
> >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed
by John
> >> with
> >> > >> his
> >> > >> > thoughts:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
two
> >> questions
> >> > >> > specifically:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> communities
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
as
> >> backend
> >> > >> > persistence stores?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Bruce
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> >> roman@shaposhnik.org <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > > wrote:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> concerned
> >> > >> about:
> >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
<
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com
<
> >> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through
huge blobs
> >> of
> >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition
of initial
> >> committers
> >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend
a lot of
> >> time
> >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> >> prevails.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile
the statement:
> >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing
up as well.
> >> I
> >> > >> > suspect
> >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development
> >> on the
> >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
apache
> >> > >> products"
> >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> >> competes
> >> > >> with
> >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce
is the
> >> chair of
> >> > >> one
> >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
synergies
> >> with
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> >> today in
> >> > >> > their
> >> > >> > > code base.
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> >> > >> communities
> >> > >> > to
> >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode,
Derby as
> >> backend
> >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > etc..
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > >> > > > Roman.
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister
<
> >> > >> brianm@skife.org <mailto:brianm@skife.org>>
> >> > >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski
<
> >> jim@jagunet.com <mailto:jim@jagunet.com>>
> >> > >> > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > >
> >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> +1
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce
Snyder <
> >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> >> > >> > > > wrote:
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for
a new Incubator podling
> >> named
> >> > >> > > Apache
> >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable,
scalable,
> >> distributed,
> >> > >> > easy
> >> > >> > > > to
> >> > >> > > > >> use
> >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially
for processing
> >> large
> >> > >> > amounts
> >> > >> > > > of
> >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in
the wiki at the
> >> following
> >> > >> URL:
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
> >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> >> > >> 2F%
> >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
> >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> >%7Cd1
> >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> >> 036&sdata=
> >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the
proposal below.
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> >> > >> > > > >> >
> >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> >> ------------------------------
> >> > >> > ---------
> >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> >> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> >> > >> org
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > > >>
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > >> ---------
> >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> >> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
> >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
> >> .apache.org>
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > > >
> >> > >> > >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > --
> >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> >> "YC;VT*"
> >> > >> );'
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
> >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> >> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
<
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> >> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> >> > >> %
> >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <https://na01.safelinks
> <
> >> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&
<
> >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> >> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
<
> >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd1
> >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> >> 036&sdata=
> >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&reserved=0
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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