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From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:33:42 GMT
Hi Luke,

I'm sorry you feel that it was inappropriate to start a discussion about
expanded community building in reaction the the RocketMQ proposal,
especially since my intent was to help the proposed incubator based on what
I've seen with the Trafodion project, which has a strong Chinese
contribution.

As mentioned, the Apache Way is that "everything happens on the mailing
lists." As a matter of fact, key parts of being an incubator is to learn
how to operate per the Apache Way and to build communities. We even include
statistics about mailing list engagement as an indicator of community
building.

The struggle I'm referring is that we're seeing a reluctance to participate
in the main Apache communication methods: email. Clearly, we can try to get
statistics from the different forums you and I have mentioned but that's
really just collecting data points.

How can you help? Well, how to we get more people from China (or other
companies) to engage with the mailing lists or vice versa? I'm imagining
jumping on the QQ group and must admit to be very apprehensive on doing so.
It's not an easy thing to get over.

Gunnar

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 7:16 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Gunnar,
>
> > Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
>
>      I think maybe I'm not bring message so clearly, let me try again:
>      Such account is not a GROUP, it's something like twitter account which
> has 20k followers where the author sharing experiences, samples and
> anything else...to help to educate users, help to grow up local
> communities. I have to say, such account helped a lot for ASF projects'
> adoption in China. Back to QQ group, something like Google Group which
> everybody could create in seconds.
>
>      Is that Trafodion QQ group created and managed by Trafodion PMC or
> someone else? Did your PMCs make decision over there, or just users who
> asking questions over there? If "it's invisible to the rest of us" means
> decision has been made by your PMCs in QQ group but not in mailing
> list...that's really problem and you have to raise to PPMC/IPMC.
>
>      But if it's about user group, there are many local communities
> everywhere for sure using different languages, in Chinese, in Spanish, in
> Japanese...could we know everything from there? For example, did Hadoop
> report include activities from Hortonworks/Cloudera hosted forum, twitter
> accounts or Facebook pages "like" number or any other online forums/groups?
> They are really user communities too.
>
>       I just shared my experience with you in last reply about how we
> handle that...hope it could help you to understand what you could do. And
> also brought some facts how user communities formed, operated and what we
> have did. And brought some data from different Apache projects, obviously
> it's not "an Apache-wide issue that needs to be addressed".
>
>       I'm not argue with you about "Which language is better" or "mailing
> list vs QQ/Google Group", I just want to help you to figure the root cause
> of your original "struggle" problem.
>
>       But I'm not very agree with you raised such discussion after a new
> incubator project proposal (and just changed the subject name)...looks like
> we are really not friendly to new comers especially from a different, non
> native English speaking (actually most of talent engineers are well
> educated with English in China) and different culture world...the team is
> so "scary" and asked us many times like "will they cancel the vote? do they
> really welcome our project?..." when they saw this thread?
>
>       And, let's focus on your really issue, maybe we could help you:)
>
>       Thanks.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
>
> Luke Han
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 1:39 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Luke:
> >
> > This question was originally asked on the incubator list. The members
> list
> > was added somewhere on the line.
> >
> > Part of the incubator challenge is to show community growth. In the
> past, a
> > good metric seems to have been to check interaction on the mailing lists;
> > for example, on the user list.
> >
> > As you note, China changes this equation forming communities on QQ,
> WeChat,
> > and other places I'm probably not aware of. This means that there can be
> a
> > thriving user community that the PMC may or may not be aware of. So, how
> to
> > we assess community involvement that bypass the Apache "everything
> happens
> > on the mailing lists" principle?
> >
> > Like you noted, it's easy to translate questions and respond to questions
> > in English. The Trafodion project does that, no problems. But, most of
> the
> > discussion in China happen on the alternative forums with the project's
> > Chinese speakers contributors participating. So, for Trafodion
> > specifically, I can ask those contributors to provide participation
> > statistics so that I can include the information in the next report.
> >
> > However, I was trying to figure out whether there's an Apache-wide issue
> > that needs to be addressed. Given your statistics, I think there is:
> > "everything happens on the mailing lists" just isn't the case when
> there's
> > a 20K contributor community on WeChat. That's awesome news! But, it's
> > invisible to the rest of us.
> >
> > So, let's think about this from a community building perspective. The
> > traditional way of mailing lists is now being augmented by WeChat, QQ,
> etc.
> > in an organic fashion. I'd argue that you don't want to police organic
> > growth but rather embrace it so that you can get insights into what's
> going
> > on.
> >
> > Assuming that people agree that it's important to bridge the communities,
> > I'd start with something simple: how can we find out what communities
> exist
> > in the different Chinese forums, membership, and activity. Shy of
> learning
> > Chinese that is. :)
> >
> > My next question is: how can we help those communities? What would make
> > Apache usage grow even more? For Trafodion, I simply pointed to the QQ
> > group but that seems way too little...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Luke Han <luke.hq@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > > > to communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about
> > it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group
> so
> > > that
> > > > others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe that
> > was
> > > > the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere than
> shut
> > > it > down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > >
> > > And for "invisible to the project", are you talking about PMCs or
> Users?
> > > That's totally different arguments.
> > >
> > > Would like to share our experience which may help to bring some ideas
> for
> > > you. At the beginning, there were many people came to Kylin mailing
> list
> > > and
> > > asked questions in Chinese, but our PMC (most of them are Chinese too)
> > had
> > > tried their best to help to translate to English, again and again. And
> we
> > > tried to convince people who we knew to ask question in English. And we
> > > have a
> > > simple rule for our PMCs to answer question in English no matter which
> > > Language
> > > of the question.
> > > Not easy for everybody, but finally it works. The point is your PMCs
> > should
> > > keep discussion in mailing list, in English.  And then to influent
> others
> > > who
> > > want to participate, contribute and use this open source project.
> > >
> > > Why English?
> > > It's only way to cross board for global adoption.
> > >
> > >
> > > On the other hand, from user perspective, they really would like to
> learn
> > > and
> > > try new technology with their native language so that they could
> > understand
> > > quickly and deeply, people may give up if their English is not good
> > enough
> > > at that time...then they asking question in their native Language is
> the
> > > right
> > > thing they should to do to get help.
> > >
> > > For projects coming from non-English developer community, the native
> > > language is the best one to attract local users and fans, then
> > developers.
> > > We
> > > shouldn't force "users" how to communicate between them, actually
> nothing
> > > we can do. For example, there's QQ group for Kylin which is very active
> > who
> > > are discussing and exchanging ideas over there. What can we do? Try to
> > > leading discussion to mailing list and never answer detail question
> there
> > > but
> > > will do in mailing list. But that's not said people will coming to
> > mailing
> > > list
> > > because they already could help each other.
> > >
> > > Actually, most of Apache projects have QQ or WeChat group(s) in China.
> > > For example, there are hundreds Spark groups each one has 500 people
> and
> > > more in QQ groups.
> > >
> > > One more reference, I just got to know today there's one popular Hadoop
> > > WeChat Official Account ("official account' is WeChat's product,
> > something
> > > like channel/blog...) who has 20,000 subscribers. And it's just one of
> > such
> > > accounts...
> > >
> > > Then my question is are PPMCs willing to engage them?
> > >
> > > Why Chinese?
> > > To engage the biggest developer community of the world, no matter
> where's
> > > project coming from.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best Regards!
> > > ---------------------
> > >
> > > Luke Han
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Gunnar Tapper <
> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to separate user lists from other
> > lists?
> > > I
> > > > was specifically referring to users wanting to ask questions and to
> get
> > > > help. The support side if you will.
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned, the Chinese users have chosen to find an alternate
> means
> > to
> > > > communicate that was invisible to the project until I heard about it.
> > > So, I
> > > > choose to accept reality and provided a link to the discussion group
> so
> > > > that others that wanted to discuss in Chinese knew where to go. Maybe
> > > that
> > > > was the wrong choice but I rather encourage interaction somewhere
> than
> > > shut
> > > > it down with a "use our mailing lists only."
> > > >
> > > > As mention, I prefer to use e-mail lists but it seems that users
> aren't
> > > > comfortable with that. I'm hoping that people in China can help
> > identify
> > > > what would work for those users.
> > > >
> > > > I have similar issues with documentation but I'll open a separate
> > > > discussion thread on that topic.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 12:14 AM, Jeff Genender <
> jgenender@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> > > >> international language, not because its the most used in the world.
> > > Thus
> > > >> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I
> > > think
> > > >> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross
> > > borders
> > > >> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can
> > tell
> > > you
> > > >> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run
> into
> > > >> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> > > >> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the
> > > discussion
> > > >> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who
> you
> > > want
> > > >> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > > >>
> > > >> In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> > doesn’t
> > > >> speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This
> > > >> means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the
> project
> > > when
> > > >> they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses
> any
> > > >> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.
> In
> > > the
> > > >> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation
> PMC
> > > or,
> > > >> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a
> proper
> > > >> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the
> language.
> > > >>
> > > >> I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> > > >> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my
> .02
> > is
> > > >> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about
> > community
> > > >> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If
> > you
> > > >> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
> > > that
> > > >> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I
> > > think
> > > >> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ
> a
> > > >> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> > > >> interested in why.
> > > >>
> > > >> Just my usual .02.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jeff
> > > >>
> > > >> > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> > > about
> > > >> diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> > > >> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> > never
> > > >> happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how
> would
> > > non
> > > >> Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> > Adding members@
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> > > <mailto:
> > > >> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that
> > consist
> > > >> > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or
> put
> > it
> > > >> > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must
> be
> > > in
> > > >> > > English?
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English,
> as
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> > software
> > > >> > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of
> proficiency
> > > >> when it
> > > >> > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> > > much
> > > >> lower
> > > >> > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to
> learn
> > > >> English
> > > >> > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will
> also
> > > >> exclude
> > > >> > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> > of
> > > >> native
> > > >> > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> > > >> according
> > > >> > > to Wikipedia.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> > countries,
> > > >> > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Luke Han <lukehan@apache.org
> > > >> <mailto:lukehan@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >> Hi Gunnar,
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I don't think your point is right, one community's problem
> (maybe
> > > not
> > > >> > >> real,
> > > >> > >> but just
> > > >> > >> refer to what you mentioned) could NOT represent all
> > contributions
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> China,
> > > >> > >> or any other territories from all of the world.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> This will misleading people to ignore contributions from
> Chinese
> > > and
> > > >> LABEL
> > > >> > >> for such
> > > >> > >> contributors and committers..as your pattern, there are tons of
> > > >> "issue" to
> > > >> > >> describe like
> > > >> > >> Russian Contribution, German Contributions, Canada contribution
> > or
> > > >> > >> others...
> > > >> > >> that's not right way.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Yes, Chinese people are not native English speakers, but they
> are
> > > >> > >> contributing to
> > > >> > >> most of the ASF projects and others foundation projects very
> > much,
> > > >> > >> involved
> > > >> > >> in many
> > > >> > >> discussion, development, decision and others deeply.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Let's try to talk with some data, here's summary about last 31
> > days
> > > >> > >> mailing
> > > >> > >> list activity from lists.apache.org <http://lists.apache.org/>
> > > [1]:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> Project         |  Emails    |   Topics    |   Participants
> > > >> > >> HBase         |   610      |    406      |   100
> > > >> > >> Spark           |   412      |    88       |   124
> > > >> > >> Kylin             |   294      |    144      |   61
> > > >> > >> CarbonData |   852      |    250      |   116
> > > >> > >> HAWQ          |   284      |    109      |   57
> > > >> > >> Trafodion      |   87       |    20       |   25
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> There are many Chinese people are participating in these
> > projects,
> > > >> you
> > > >> > >> could check
> > > >> > >> each one and see how Chinese people are discussing within
> mailing
> > > >> list.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> It's really not easy for Chinese people, they have to find out
> a
> > > way
> > > >> to
> > > >> > >> access
> > > >> > >> gmail or others since there's GFW, they are not native English
> > > >> speakers,
> > > >> > >> they have limited experiences for open source especially the
> > Apache
> > > >> Way.
> > > >> > >> But they are willing to contribute, willing to participate
> global
> > > >> > >> community, and try
> > > >> > >> their best to learn and follow The Apache Way. We should have
> the
> > > >> patience
> > > >> > >> for
> > > >> > >> those new comers.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> As one thing I'm doing now is try to let more people to know
> our
> > > >> journey,
> > > >> > >> our experience
> > > >> > >>  about how to follow the Apache Way, how we overcome such
> > > >> > >> challenges...through
> > > >> > >> conference, events, meetup, blog, book and so on...and also
> > helping
> > > >> many
> > > >> > >> potential projects
> > > >> > >> who are interesting to join Apache family.
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> I would like suggest to change this topic to something like
> "Help
> > > >> > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> community"
> > > >> > >> which will help to focus on real issue and your concern (Does
> > > >> Trafodion
> > > >> > >> PMC
> > > >> > >> know
> > > >> > >> this concern?)  I'm very happy to help...share with you many
> > > >> articles,
> > > >> > >> session recordings and
> > > >> > >> others about open source, even could try to do some face to
> face
> > > >> > >> discussion
> > > >> > >> if necessary:-)
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> [1] https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>  <
> > > >> https://lists.apache.org <https://lists.apache.org/>>
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:00 AM, Gunnar Tapper <
> > > >> tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> wrote:
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >> > Hi,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Using the RocketMQ proposal to start a larger discussion.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Apache Trafodion is another project that has a lot of
> > > contribution
> > > >> from
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > One of the struggles I've seen is that the contributors
> aren't
> > > that
> > > >> > >> active
> > > >> > >> > on email. Rather, they prefer to use a forum on QQ
> > communicating
> > > in
> > > >> > >> > Chinese.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm currently the release manager and I must admit that it's
> > hard
> > > >> not to
> > > >> > >> > see all discussions. Several of us are trying to encourage
> > > >> questions etc
> > > >> > >> > via the email lists but users just prefer Chinese forums.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I suspect that Apache will see more of this behavior moving
> > > >> forward,
> > > >> > >> > especially as other proposals come in. So, I'm hoping that
> > > members
> > > >> in
> > > >> > >> China
> > > >> > >> > can help advise on what can be done to address communication
> > > >> issues like
> > > >> > >> > this.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Gunnar
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Nov 5, 2016 12:21 PM, "Ross Gardler" <
> > > >> Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com <mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Some folks may remember my state of the feather session a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > >> > >> years
> > > >> > >> > ago when I called for more awareness of the ASFs role in open
> > > >> source
> > > >> > >> beyond
> > > >> > >> > English speaking countries. This was prompted by a fact
> finding
> > > >> trip to
> > > >> > >> > China.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > RocketMQ and the team behind it was one of the projects I
> > talked
> > > >> to. We
> > > >> > >> > discussed the Apache way at length, however I have not been
> > > >> involved
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > this proposal.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > I'm excited to see this proposal. I hope we can bring this
> > > project
> > > >> and
> > > >> > >> > welcome the excellent team I met in China into the
> foundation.
> > We
> > > >> will
> > > >> > >> need
> > > >> > >> > to work hard to ensure the project is a success. Like other
> > China
> > > >> born
> > > >> > >> > projects we will find that there are cultural differences
> that
> > we
> > > >> need
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > understand, but this would not be the first time we, as a
> > > >> foundation
> > > >> > >> and as
> > > >> > >> > individuals, accept an opportunity to grow in this way.
> Having
> > > met
> > > >> some
> > > >> > >> of
> > > >> > >> > the proposing team I am confident that with the right mentors
> > the
> > > >> > >> project
> > > >> > >> > can succeed.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce, thanks for stepping up to help.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Ross
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ---
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ________________________________
> > > >> > >> > From: Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:
> > > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 9:21:47 AM
> > > >> > >> > To: general@incubator.apache.org <mailto:
> > general@incubator.apac
> > > >> he.org>
> > > >> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Hi John,
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > >> constructive
> > > >> > >> > feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ proposal and
> > > >> project
> > > >> > >> using
> > > >> > >> > your suggestions.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by
> Von
> > > >> Gosling,
> > > >> > >> > there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
> the
> > > >> Github
> > > >> > >> > repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging activity'
> > the
> > > >> history
> > > >> > >> > was
> > > >> > >> > erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to mean that
> someone's
> > > >> git-fu
> > > >> > >> went
> > > >> > >> > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed.
> > Von
> > > >> also
> > > >> > >> gives
> > > >> > >> > further explanation of the project history in a response
> below.
> > > >> Indeed,
> > > >> > >> > this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
> before
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> git),
> > > >> > >> > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > > >> improve
> > > >> > >> and
> > > >> > >> > grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising,
> > > since
> > > >> > >> Bruce is
> > > >> > >> > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the
> ASF
> > > >> exist
> > > >> > >> > together regardless of their focus and all projects needs
> good
> > > >> mentors,
> > > >> > >> > regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > >> interest in
> > > >> > >> > helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my interest
> > in
> > > >> > >> continuing
> > > >> > >> > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15
> > years
> > > >> > >> experience
> > > >> > >> > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one
> project
> > > >> over
> > > >> > >> > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to
> collaborate
> > > >> > >> > constructively with others on open source and to foster a
> > > >> community of
> > > >> > >> > inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow.
> The
> > > ASF
> > > >> is an
> > > >> > >> > inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
> from
> > > new
> > > >> > >> > projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
> and
> > > >> stay for
> > > >> > >> > the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a new
> > > >> project and
> > > >> > >> > people to the ASF.
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > > >> > >> suggestions
> > > >> > >> > for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> > > >> proposal.
> > > >> > >> Even
> > > >> > >> > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also
> > be
> > > >> great
> > > >> > >> > ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > moving
> > > >> > >> forward.
> > > >> > >> > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects
> > you
> > > >> > >> mentioned
> > > >> > >> > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > > >> RocketMQ
> > > >> > >> code
> > > >> > >> > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by
> > John
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> his
> > > >> > >> > thoughts:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following
> two
> > > >> questions
> > > >> > >> > specifically:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> communities
> > > >> > >> to
> > > >> > >> > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament <
> > > >> john.d.ament@gmail.com <mailto:john.d.ament@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik <
> > > >> roman@shaposhnik.org <mailto:roman@shaposhnik.org>
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly
> > > concerned
> > > >> > >> about:
> > > >> > >> > > >    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fcontributors&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=96ixj1Js5%
> > > >> > >> > 2BytkM0Pru7nABYfTTYimOP5se5POgOMleo%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge
> > blobs
> > > >> of
> > > >> > >> > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > > >> committers
> > > >> > >> > > > is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a lot
> > of
> > > >> time
> > > >> > >> > > > making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> > > >> prevails.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the
> > statement:
> > > >> > >> > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > >> > >> > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as
> > well.
> > > >> I
> > > >> > >> > suspect
> > > >> > >> > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source
> > development
> > > >> on the
> > > >> > >> > > product and it was kept internal.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other
> > apache
> > > >> > >> products"
> > > >> > >> > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > > >> competes
> > > >> > >> with
> > > >> > >> > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is
> the
> > > >> chair of
> > > >> > >> one
> > > >> > >> > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has
> > synergies
> > > >> with
> > > >> > >> the
> > > >> > >> > > other components.  I raised that they're using ASF projects
> > > >> today in
> > > >> > >> > their
> > > >> > >> > > code base.
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > >> > >> communities
> > > >> > >> > to
> > > >> > >> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > >> > >> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby
> > as
> > > >> backend
> > > >> > >> > > persistence stores?
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > etc..
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > Roman.
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister <
> > > >> > >> brianm@skife.org <mailto:brianm@skife.org>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > > +1 !
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski <
> > > >> jim@jagunet.com <mailto:jim@jagunet.com>>
> > > >> > >> > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> Cool.
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> +1
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > > >> > >> bruce.snyder@gmail.com <mailto:bruce.snyder@gmail.com>>
> > > >> > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator
> > podling
> > > >> named
> > > >> > >> > > Apache
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > >> distributed,
> > > >> > >> > easy
> > > >> > >> > > > to
> > > >> > >> > > > >> use
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for
> processing
> > > >> large
> > > >> > >> > amounts
> > > >> > >> > > > of
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > >> following
> > > >> > >> URL:
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A% <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%>
> > > >> > >> 2F%
> > > >> > >> > 2Fwiki.apache.org <http://2fwiki.apache.org/>%2F
> > > >> incubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=02%
> > > >> > >> > 7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> > > >%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > xjsmhUA5%2Ftnl5HnA4LtQnVGa5ddYybjaKIe3CRgS9S0%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > >> > > > >> >
> > > >> > >> > > > >> > Bruce
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> > ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.
> > > >> > >> org
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------
> > ------------------------------
> > > >> > >> ---------
> > > >> > >> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.
> > > >> apache.org <mailto:general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > >> general-help@incubator.apache.org <mailto:general-help@incubator
> > > >> .apache.org>
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > > >
> > > >> > >> > >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > --
> > > >> > >> > perl -e 'print
> > > >> > >> > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\
> > > >> "YC;VT*"
> > > >> > >> );'
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >> > ActiveMQ in Action: https://na01.safelinks.protect
> > > >> ion.outlook.com/?url= <https://na01.safelinks.protec
> > > >> tion.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40m
> > > >> > >> icrosoft.com <http://icrosoft.com/>%
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=WObI4mpJLTWW%2Fg6%
> > > >> > >> > 2BNB3ERPQJ6JVFuM0u4fWySbWWpGI%3D&reserved=0
> > > >> > >> > Blog: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Fbsnyder.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40mi
> > > >> crosoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>
> > > >> > >> %
> > > >> > >> > 7Cd12890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011
> > > >> > >> > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > 9EWI%2FF%2FgDyaU9qybAVHRZ%
> > > >> > >> > 2FigY6o%2FjkAuZxilJ8uZMEg%3D&reserved=0 <
> > https://na01.safelinks
> > > <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks/>.
> > > >> > >> > protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F& <
> > > >> http://protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbruceblog.org%2F&>
> > > >> > >> > data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <
> > > >> http://40microsoft.com/>%7Cd12890186efe4c
> > > >> > >> 6e60c908d40597
> > > >> > >> > dcff%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%
> > > >> > >> > 7C636139597197176036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > Vlc0l%2FVfE997etkGwBIVJ0wSQ6eDz3bPoWzeWLTl6X8%3D&reserved=0>
> > > >> > >> > Twitter: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=
> <
> > > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=>
> > > >> > >> > http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%
> > > >> > >> > 7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/
> >%7Cd1
> > > >> 2890186efe4c6e60c908d40597dcff%
> > > >> > >> > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636139597197176
> > > >> 036&sdata=
> > > >> > >> > iCFOJzNIqieH5fJ%2BL6%2BxaVjgi8q2hiqjlc2VVerPr40%3D&
> reserved=0
> > > >> > >> >
> > > >> > >>
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Gunnar
> > > > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > *If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*
> >
>



-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

Mime
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