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From Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gun...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:32:27 GMT
A few things...

1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside
of "everything happens on mailing lists."
2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those
communities.
3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage
this class of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community
since they are a huge source of potential committers.
4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English
translators seem to work fine but not vice versa.

So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.

Gunnar

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@savoirtech.com>
wrote:

> and you got your answer…. what changes?
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a
> question on the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using
> Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples. As noted, neither Raynold nor I are
> part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that project for opinions
> expressed by individuals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org>> wrote:
> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it
> is not defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance.
> Afterall, three out of the six largest Internet companies (by market cap)
> are currently in mainland China, and they all have enormous daily active
> users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> >
> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs
> reside. ;-)   Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose
> country is the best.  That does nobody any good and its straw man.
> >
> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as
> I stated it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my
> statement.  Read it again.  That was certainly *not* my argument and my
> argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> >
> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say
> that if you want more international/cross-border users, you will need to
> use a more international language.  Outside of China I will also say that
> the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> >
> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on
> ActiveMQ, and I love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such
> as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell you directly that if your discussions are
> in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.  Now based on your
> tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
> are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to
> define on who your want your audience to be.
> >
> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance”
> because our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to
> change your situation or position.
> >
> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice,
> then getting defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.
> What responses were you looking for?  Were you looking that the rest of the
> members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer that its a great idea?  If
> this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time in
> attempting to answer you.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org
> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:
> jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most
> international language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus
> it helps cross borders for communication.  At the end of the day, I think
> you need to look at your community and ask if you want it to cross borders
> or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
> that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into
> problems or issues using Apache software.  If the discussions are in
> Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can be a part of the discussion
> from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about who you want
> your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > >
> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion
> doesn’t speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.
> This means the other mentors may have a difficult time steering the project
> when they are needed.  It makes it difficult for the champion to asses any
> problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.  In the
> unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or,
> the board for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper
> insight into the issues without have solid knowledge of the language.
> > >
> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a
> language and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is
> that if I were bringing a project to Apache, my thoughts about community
> would be getting as many people and users involved as possible.  If you
> don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe that
> you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think
> that would be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a
> Chinese piece of software.  I guess that is ok too… but I would be
> interested in why.
> > >
> > > Just my usual .02.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:
> tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>>>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking
> about diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but
> obviously it decreases the chance of participation of others.
> > > >
> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it
> never happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >
> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would
> non Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:
> rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > > Adding members@
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
> <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
> it
> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
> in
> > > > > English?
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
> English
> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented
> software
> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
> when it
> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
> much lower
> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
> English
> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >
> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
> exclude
> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
> of native
> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
> according
> > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other
> countries,
> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
>
>


-- 
Thanks,

Gunnar
*If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.*

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