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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
Date Sun, 06 Nov 2016 17:38:54 GMT
+1

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luke Han [mailto:luke.hq@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 4:46 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] RocketMQ Incubation Proposal
> 
> > My feeling reading RocketMQ is that its done in a "this is why
> > RocketMQ is better than" approach instead of "this is why RocketMQ
> > differs from them" approach.
> 
> 
> > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > communities to build cross platform clients?
> > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as backend
> > persistence stores?
> 
> I'm afraid such question will misleading ASF's position for new project
> especially from a new community (not native English community, but maybe
> biggest one of the world) who are new to ASF and trying their best to learn and
> follow the Apache Way.
> 
> I don't think ASF community will ask every project have to use currently Apache
> project's client, library or anything else. There are many project just come here
> and grow to success without too much "cross".
> 
> IMO, such question should go to dev@ list if it will be accepted later. or just
> send to author separately:-)
> 
> Thanks
> Luke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards!
> ---------------------
> 
> Luke Han
> 
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:53 AM, John D. Ament <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bruce,
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 12:21 PM Bruce Snyder <bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > > Proposals for new ASF projects are offered to this list for
> > > constructive feedback. I am happy to help steer the RocketMQ
> > > proposal and project
> > using
> > > your suggestions.
> > >
> > > First, as explained previously in this discussion thread by Von
> > > Gosling, there was some company IP that was mistakenly committed to
> > > the Github repository and through a '...unlucky... scavenging
> > > activity' the history was erased, as Von put it. I interpret this to
> > > mean that someone's git-fu
> > went
> > > awry which unintentionally caused the history to be removed. Von
> > > also
> > gives
> > > further explanation of the project history in a response below.
> > > Indeed, this is an unfortunate situation (and one that I've seen
> > > before with
> > git),
> > > but should this prevent the project from coming to the ASF to
> > > improve and grow under the auspices of the ASF and The Apache Way?
> > >
> >
> > I was simply trying to reiterate for Roman's sanity of what I
> > understood happened, based on Von's email, and my understanding of it.
> > I don't particularly see any concerns with it (as you mention, it
> > happens all of the time), but you may want to consider removing
> > notions that the software was open sourced in 2012, since it sounds like it
> was more of a mistake.
> > The ASF has no requirement that code coming has to be already open
> > sourced, we expect an SGA to be filed with the software coming in.
> >
> > FWIW, I still don't have a good understanding of OMS and its
> > relationship to RocketMQ.  It may be relevant (e.g. a commercial
> > product based on the open source product) or may be completely
> > irrelevant (internal project name vs external project name).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Second, regarding your statement: 'and its a bit surprising, since
> > > Bruce
> > is
> > > the chair of one of the competitors' -- All projects at the ASF
> > > exist together regardless of their focus and all projects needs good
> > > mentors, regardless of whether they are seen as competing or not. My
> > > interest in helping the RocketMQ project is no different than my
> > > interest in
> > continuing
> > > to be involved with the ActiveMQ project. I have nearly 15 years
> > experience
> > > at the ASF and I'm not here to play games and favor one project over
> > > another. I continue to be involved with the ASF to collaborate
> > > constructively with others on open source and to foster a community
> > > of inclusiveness where we can all continually learn and grow. The
> > > ASF is an inclusive place where even experienced projects can learn
> > > from new projects. As I've said for many years, we all come for code
> > > and stay for the people. My intent is to use my experience to help a
> > > new project and people to the ASF.
> > >
> >
> > This is more of a concern of mine around the structure and content of
> > the proposal, and how some of it potentially leads to issues for the
> > eventual website around RocketMQ.  While the ASF will not limit itself
> > to a single product for a technological/functional area, I do see it
> > as an issue that a project provides references stating why you should
> > use "it" vs another Apache project.  I interpret the current
> > "Relationships to other Apache Products" section as being just that
> > right now.  My only edit to that area was to fix the moin-moin mark up
> > in use, since it wasn't creating a valid table (just as an FYI).
> >
> > Typically when podlings come in, that section lists out the
> > dependencies they have on existing ASF projects/products.  Hence why I
> > had responded with the list I sent out - that list is more akin to what we
> usually see.
> > Here's some example proposals that do that a bit cleaner from my POV:
> >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.
> >
> apache.org%2Fincubator%2FAsterixDBProposal&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gard
> ler
> >
> %40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f
> 141af
> >
> 91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636140331941161239&sdata=y3hc8SOyjC
> 6pIcAiuK
> > TAEphCTYJtdPFzVTXM2iYGvK0%3D&reserved=0
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.
> >
> apache.org%2Fincubator%2FBrooklynProposal&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardl
> er%
> >
> 40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f1
> 41af9
> >
> 1ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636140331941171248&sdata=7Bg23QhKnx
> 1Et2Lucbk
> > %2BnoH2NlbJj8NO75YjHUSNDbo%3D&reserved=0
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.
> >
> apache.org%2Fincubator%2FDistributedLogProposal&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.
> Ga
> >
> rdler%40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988
> bf86f
> >
> 141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636140331941171248&sdata=%2BcI
> Z7lYKHOk
> > dMlms%2FoUj%2BEffRO3VyTEURHUmxPZJoHo%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > As you can see there's two specific things being answered here.  The
> > primary being how they already play a role in the existing ecosystem
> > by consuming the projects.  A secondary case, which I think is what
> > RocketMQ should aim to follow, is found closely in the AsterixDB
> > proposal.  They specifically call out how they complement other
> > products (e.g. Spark, without providing a full integration) and how they differ
> from them (e.g.
> > Pig/Hive, HBase).  My feeling reading RocketMQ is that its done in a
> > "this is why RocketMQ is better than" approach instead of "this is why
> > RocketMQ differs from them" approach.
> >
> > The questions I asked were meant to be leading questions - not
> > necessarily answered in this proposal (or ever) but to give some ideas
> > of what should be in that section.  So I don't really expect the to be
> > dealt with at this time, or possibly ever.
> >
> > As an aside, I added a link to RocketMQ to the proposals page.  Saves
> > secretary a step (and hassle) as we get further down the line.
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Third, I think the two questions you have posed are both good
> > > suggestions for discussion and debate and might even help to improve the
> proposal.
> > Even
> > > if there are no solid answers today, I think these would also be
> > > great ideas to debate around the code base and within the project
> > > moving
> > forward.
> > > I really like the idea of cross-pollination with the projects you
> > mentioned
> > > as well as others at the ASF. Since I have not worked on the
> > > RocketMQ
> > code
> > > base, I will allow Von to respond to two questions posed by John
> > > with his
> > > thoughts:
> > >
> > > Von, can you please provide your thoughts on the following two
> > > questions
> > > specifically:
> > >
> > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > communities
> > to
> > > build cross platform clients?
> > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > > backend persistence stores?
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:26 PM, John D. Ament
> > > <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM Roman Shaposhnik
> > > > <roman@shaposhnik.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The proposal looks fine in general, but I'm slightly concerned about:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2
> > > > >
> Fgithub.com%2Falibaba%2FRocketMQ%2Fgraphs%2Fcontributors&data=02
> > > > >
> %7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5008d40
> > > > >
> 642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636140331
> 94
> > > > >
> 1171248&sdata=FZwZJ3L6zXCZaD7zjVvABAaJKffHn0nvm%2FzjO3hpokA%3D&
> r
> > > > > eserved=0
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems that the model so far has been -- through huge blobs of
> > > > > code over the wall. Given that the composition of initial
> > > > > committers is all from Alibaba I hope their mentors will spend a
> > > > > lot of time making sure that "commit early, commit often" mentality
> prevails.
> > > > >
> > > > > In addition to that, I can't seem to reconcile the statement:
> > > > >    "The source code was opened up in 2012."
> > > > > with what I see on GitHub. What am I missing?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So I think these are the same points I was bringing up as well.  I
> > > suspect
> > > > its a case where there wasn't a ton of open source development on
> > > > the product and it was kept internal.
> > > >
> > > > I'm still a bit leary about the "relationship with other apache
> > products"
> > > > section still.  I'm not interested in seeing how a podling
> > > > competes
> > with
> > > > other projects (and its a bit surprising, since Bruce is the chair
> > > > of
> > one
> > > > of the competitors), but instead how the podling has synergies
> > > > with the other components.  I raised that they're using ASF
> > > > projects today in
> > > their
> > > > code base.
> > > >
> > > > Some other ways to address this section:
> > > >
> > > > - How can RocketMQ work with the existing Kafka or ActiveMQ
> > > > communities
> > > to
> > > > build cross platform clients?
> > > > - How can RocketMQ look to leverage Cassandra, Geode, Derby as
> > > > backend persistence stores?
> > > >
> > > > etc..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Roman.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 AM, Brian McCallister
> > > > > <brianm@skife.org
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > +1 !
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:37 AM, Jim Jagielski
> > > > > > <jim@jagunet.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Cool.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> +1
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > On Nov 3, 2016, at 6:10 PM, Bruce Snyder <
> > bruce.snyder@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Please find below a proposal for a new Incubator podling
> > > > > >> > named
> > > > Apache
> > > > > >> > RocketMQ, a fast, low latency, reliable, scalable,
> > > > > >> > distributed,
> > > easy
> > > > > to
> > > > > >> use
> > > > > >> > message-oriented middleware, especially for processing
> > > > > >> > large
> > > amounts
> > > > > of
> > > > > >> > streaming data.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > The draft proposal can be found in the wiki at the
> > > > > >> > following
> > URL:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A
> > > > > >> >
> %2F%2Fwiki.apache.org%2Fincubator%2FRocketMQProposal&data=0
> > > > > >> >
> 2%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5
> > > > > >> >
> 008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C
> > > > > >> >
> 636140331941171248&sdata=Lrox9nCtgDyTWWb2X9z9LS2tGbytXbdjWe
> > > > > >> > yRDfD5cSQ%3D&reserved=0
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Below, please find the text for the proposal below.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Thanks,
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Bruce
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > -
> > > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > >> general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.
> > org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > perl -e 'print
> > > unpack("u30","D0G)U8V4\@4VYY9&5R\"F)R=6-E+G-
> N>61E<D\!G;6%I;\"YC;VT*" );'
> > >
> > > ActiveMQ in Action:
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.
> > >
> ly%2F2je6cQ&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6
> a3a
> > >
> 7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C
> 0%7C
> > >
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> WyRSPq
> > > sg%3D&reserved=0
> > > Blog:
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbsny
> > >
> der.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C3142ab6a
> 3a7
> > >
> 840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0
> %7C6
> > >
> 36140331941171248&sdata=khyN21BrPdqO1XJJrGELmdv7zZXmfoRrf09S4MQ
> d9I0%
> > > 3D&reserved=0
> > > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbru
> > >
> ceblog.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C3142a
> b6a
> > >
> 3a7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%
> 7C0%
> > >
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> > > wWjM%3D&reserved=0>
> > > Twitter:
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwit
> > >
> ter.com%2Fbrucesnyder&data=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%
> 7C
> > >
> 3142ab6a3a7840fc3f5008d40642eef9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db
> 47%
> > >
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> BfwoMd
> > > zZlv9xgIELn8%3D&reserved=0
> > >
> >
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