incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Jeff Genender <jgenen...@savoirtech.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] China Contribution. (was: RocketMQ Incubation Proposal)
Date Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:57:57 GMT
I’m not sure that changes anything… that has been the nature of this since the beginning.

For Apache… most happens on the mailing lists for very obvious reasons.  Doing things outside
tand not bringing them to the lists is frowned upon because it leaves the rest of the community
in the dark.

You see the challenges… they were explicitly discussed in this thread.  English is unfortunately/fortunately
the adaptor of communication to the world.  Thats not “western arrogance”.  Its a fact.
 Someone has to be the mediator and english it is.

If a community wants to extend across borders and get more non-localized input, then english
will likely be the need.  If a project/PMC does not, care, then utilize your language de-jour
with the understanding of the consequences.  

I don’t really see a solution beyond that.  I guess if you have an area where the devs discuss
in another language and someone wants to translate it to english and bring it to the lists
so others can be a part of it, I assume that would work.  But that seems like a lot of work
to me.  Do you have a better solution?

Jeff


> On Nov 11, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A few things...
> 
> 1. There's a huge thriving Apache community in China that operates outside of "everything
happens on mailing lists."
> 2. As a committer in an incubator, I want to have insight into those communities.
> 3. I need to figure out if there's anything that can be done to encourage this class
of contributors to engage more with the worldwide community since they are a huge source of
potential committers.
> 4. The language barrier is a real issue where language-to-English translators seem to
work fine but not vice versa.
> 
> So, in essence: new interesting challenges in community building.
> 
> Gunnar 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@savoirtech.com <mailto:jgenender@savoirtech.com>>
wrote:
> and you got your answer…. what changes?
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Gunnar Tapper <tapper.gunnar@gmail.com <mailto:tapper.gunnar@gmail.com>>
wrote:
> >
> > Hang on a second. This was not a discussion about RocketMQ. I asked a question on
the incubators list from a larger-picture perspective using Trafodion and RocketMQ as examples.
As noted, neither Raynold nor I are part of the RocketMQ incubator so let's not ding that
project for opinions expressed by individuals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>
<mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>>> wrote:
> >
> > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 12:42 AM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> wrote:
> > > I'd avoid using the argument that English will bring more users, as it is not
defensible and risk being interpreted as western arrogance. Afterall, three out of the six
largest Internet companies (by market cap) are currently in mainland China, and they all have
enormous daily active users even though they are targeting primarily Chinese.
> >
> > The world is much bigger than a discussion for where the largest ISPs reside. ;-)
  Lets not degrade this discussion into an argument about whose country is the best.  That
does nobody any good and its straw man.
> >
> > I think you are the one being defensive and if you read what I said, as I stated
it pretty clear in my first few sentences and through out my statement.  Read it again.  That
was certainly *not* my argument and my argument was most *definitely* defensible.
> >
> > I never said English will bring in more users than China.  I *did* say that if you
want more international/cross-border users, you will need to use a more international language.
 Outside of China I will also say that the rest of the world mostly does not know Chinese.
> >
> > For the record, I am a messaging lover.  I am a committer/PMC on ActiveMQ, and I
love to play with Kafka and other MQs outside the ASF such as RabbitMQ.  I can honestly tell
you directly that if your discussions are in Chinese, I will likely never play with your software.
 Now based on your tone, I am guessing that likely you do not care.  That is fine.  But there
are a lot of folks who will be in the same boat as me.  *You* need to define on who your want
your audience to be.
> >
> > You can call me (and others who don’t speak Chinese) western “arrogance” because
our main language is an international one.  But it’s not going to change your situation
or position.
> >
> > I’m not really sure of why you are coming to members@ asking advice, then getting
defensive to those about answers that you don’t want to hear.  What responses were you looking
for?  Were you looking that the rest of the members who mostly don’t speak Chinese to answer
that its a great idea?  If this is the attitude you will take, then you are wasting our time
in attempting to answer you.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:14 PM, Jeff Genender <jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>
<mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org
<mailto:jgenender@apache.org> <mailto:jgenender@apache.org <mailto:jgenender@apache.org>>>>
wrote:
> > > I would think that English is generally used because its the most international
language, not because its the most used in the world.  Thus it helps cross borders for communication.
 At the end of the day, I think you need to look at your community and ask if you want it
to cross borders or not.  Do you want worldwide contribution (and adoption)?  I can tell you
that I glean a lot of information from the mail lists when I run into problems or issues using
Apache software.  If the discussions are in Chinese, you may miss a lot of people who can
be a part of the discussion from outside of China.  I think you really need to think about
who you want your users to be and how you want your product adopted.
> > >
> > > In addition, this is an incubated project.  AFAICT, the champion doesn’t
speak Chinese, and I am wild-guessing maybe 2 of the mentors do.  This means the other mentors
may have a difficult time steering the project when they are needed.  It makes it difficult
for the champion to asses any problems without having someone notify him of a translated issue.
 In the unlikely event that the project requires input from the incubation PMC or, the board
for that matter, it would be very difficult to get a proper insight into the issues without
have solid knowledge of the language.
> > >
> > > I personally don’t know of any rule or regulation that locks down a language
and perhaps a board member can chime in on that.  But my .02 is that if I were bringing a
project to Apache, my thoughts about community would be getting as many people and users involved
as possible.  If you don’t use a more cross-border/international language, then I believe
that you may ultimately be hindering your project beyond your borders.  I think that would
be a shame.  OTOH, maybe your desire is to keep RocketMQ a Chinese piece of software.  I guess
that is ok too… but I would be interested in why.
> > >
> > > Just my usual .02.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > > On Nov 10, 2016, at 11:53 PM, Tom Barber <tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>
<mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk
<mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk> <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk <mailto:tom@spicule.co.uk>>>>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I believe I saw something the other day where someone was talking about
diverse languages on mailing lists. personally I think it's okay but obviously it decreases
the chance of participation of others.
> > > >
> > > > of course the old saying "if it wasn't discussed on the list it never
happened" didn't mention the language.
> > > >
> > > > Thought must be taken for jira and code comments as well. how would non
Chinese speaking people follow development?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 11 Nov 2016 06:45, "Reynold Xin" <rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
<mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>>>
wrote:
> > > > Adding members@
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Reynold Xin <rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>> <mailto:rxin@apache.org
<mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>
<mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org> <mailto:rxin@apache.org <mailto:rxin@apache.org>>>>>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > To play devil's advocate: is it OK for Apache projects that consist
> > > > > primarily of Chinese developers to communicate in Chinese? Or put
it
> > > > > differently -- is it a requirement that all communications must be
in
> > > > > English?
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see an inclusiveness argument for having to use English, as
English
> > > > > is one of the most common languages. However, many talented software
> > > > > developers in China don't have the sufficient level of proficiency
when it
> > > > > comes to English, as the penetration rate of English in China is
much lower
> > > > > than other countries. It is as hard for Chinese speakers to learn
English
> > > > > as for English speakers to learn Chinese.
> > > > >
> > > > > One can certainly argue forcing everybody to use English will also
exclude
> > > > > those Chinese developers, and from the perspective of the number
of native
> > > > > speakers, Mandarin (a Chinese dialect) outnumbers English 3 to 1
according
> > > > > to Wikipedia.
> > > > >
> > > > > Similar argument also applies to Japanese, and many other countries,
> > > > > except the number of Chinese speakers is much larger.
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Gunnar
> > If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> 
> Gunnar
> If you think you can you can, if you think you can't you're right.


Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message