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Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_M=c3=bcller?= <michael.mueller@mueller-bruehl.de>
Message-ID: <0d337b3b-3588-237b-453c-374fb5c398af@mueller-bruehl.de>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 20:08:19 +0200
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Hi GJ,


due to technical problems I missed one day of the discussion. I'm going 
to catch up.

If possible, please add to to the initial commiters.


Herzliche Grüße - Best Regards,

Michael Müller
Brühl, Germany
blog.mueller-bruehl.de <http://blog.mueller-bruehl.de/>
it-rezension.de <http://it-rezension.de/>
@muellermi


Read my books
"Web Development with Java and JSF": https://leanpub.com/jsf
"Java Lambdas und (parallel) Streams" Deutsche Ausgabe: 
https://leanpub.com/lambdas-de
"Java Lambdas and (parallel) Streams" English edition: 
https://leanpub.com/lambdas

On 09/23/2016 03:30 PM, Geertjan Wielenga wrote:
> OK. Before the vote, will work on making the initial contributors list as
> complete as possible.
>
> What is the process for doing that? Do I simply make changes directly in
> the proposal? Do I make the changes public here before adding them to the
> proposal? Do I work directly with the mentors via e-mails to discuss and
> then after than make the changes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Geertjan
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:02 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bertrand,
>>
>> Responses in line.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:54 PM Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Geertjan,
>>>
>>> I won't have time to look at your whole message now, just a few
>>> clarifications as far as committers/PMC is concerned.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
>>> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...Anyone on the list
>>>> will, once the proposal has been voted on and accepted, automatically
>> be
>>>> contributors to the Apache NetBeans project...
>>> They will be commiters to be precise.
>>>
>> Agreed, the way I interpretted Geertjan is that Netbeans contributor == ASF
>> committer.  They don't have the role of PMC/PPMC presently, so we'll see
>> how that evolves.
>>
>>
>>>> Anyone not on the list will
>>>> need to be voted in by the initial contributors, which is a process
>> that
>>>> could be fast, but is still a process and can be avoided by inclusion
>> in
>>>> the initial contributors list...
>>> It's a simple process, the incubating project could very well have one
>> vote
>>> for N people if that makes sense and they are all wanted.
>>>
>> Its simple but hard.  And no, I don't think we want bulk votes.  What if
>> someone is +1 add Mark S and -1 add Bertrand D?  At least when its come up
>> to the IPMC previously, we've recommended against it.
>>
>>
>>>> Everyone on the initial contributors list is
>>>> automatically part of the PMC.
>>> There's no PMC for an incubating project, just a PPMC as per
>>> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>>>
>>> That group has no formal power, only the Incubator PMC can vote on the
>>> podling's releases or make other decisions which are binding at the
>>> foundation level.
>>>
>>> In practice, you are correct that the PPMC is a PMC in training, but
>> really
>>> in a podling being a PPMC member doesn't make a difference IMO.
>>>
>> It does.  PPMC has one important job - vote on adding more people.  We hope
>> that they will learn to look at their releases very carefully while under
>> incubation.
>>
>>
>>>> ...Anyone on the list when the project leaves
>>>> incubation gets write access to the project for the rest of their
>> life...
>>> That's correct, but there can be a difference between the committers and
>>> PMC members once the project graduates. As a mentor, when graduating I
>>> would not accept a PMC member who has not contributed during incubation
>> for
>>> example, whereas a committer that hasn't really been active during
>>> incubation is harmless.
>>>
>>> Committers don't have formal power once the project graduates, and if
>> they
>>> don't behave their commits rights can easily be suspended, temporarily or
>>> permanently. That very rarely happens, just mentioning it to clarify the
>>> risks.
>>>
>> That's... odd to say the least.  I'm not aware of any specific cases,
>> doesn't mean it hasn't' happened, but I can't think of any cases where it
>> has (other than one special case recently of someone being asked out of the
>> organization...)
>>
>>
>>> In summary, what you don't want in an Apache project is poisonous PMC
>>> members, so in my view to be on the PMC once graduating people will have
>> to
>>> demonstrate during incubation that they are making positive contributions
>>> to it - just being on the initial list of committers doesn't count
>> towards
>>> that, in my book.
>>>
>>>> ...If the above is accurate, we do need to work on the initial
>>> contributors
>>>> list prior to voting on the proposal, quite aside from the infra
>>> assessment...
>>>
>>> I still don't think that's required and should be avoided if it delays
>> the
>>> vote for NetBeans acceptance, as the list of committers can be modified
>>> during incubation with just a bit of additional work.
>>>
>> I don't think this will add a lot of work.  I even gave him the idea of
>> just generating a script of past committers based on commit history.
>>
>>
>>> If you still want do expand the list during incubation, best is to come
>> up
>>> with a list of additional names that the existing NetBeans community
>> feels
>>> deserve to be on that list (maybe based on votes on the existing NetBeans
>>> community's channels), and have the NetBeans mentors accept that new
>> list.
>> Agreed 100%.  If someone hasn't added anything in a while, has no interest
>> in developing more, and the community doesn't see much benefit, they
>> shouldn't be on the list.  However, if that person does start contributing,
>> please pay close attention to see if they're interested in coming back.
>>
>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>


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