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From "John D. Ament" <johndam...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
Date Fri, 23 Sep 2016 04:30:09 GMT
I spoke with Geertjan this afternoon.  We both happened to be at the same
popular java conference in San Francisco.  I did give him some advice on
the current initial contributors list.  Basically two notes:

- Add new members based on merit, not because prior to joining they are
interested.  The way he explained it to me, many of the initial committers
are interested in giving back to Netbeans.  They aren't able to due to the
licensing model from Oracle but are willing to under Apache.  This doesn't
mean they will or will not contribute, but there is an intent.  It may be
better to add them to the project as they begin contributing.

- Ensure that everyone who has contributed to Netbeans in the past is aware
and eligible to be a contributor.  There may be past employees who want to
still give back.  Or even present employees who are now working on other
projects.  They shouldn't necessarily be excluded from the list because
they don't currently work on Netbeans right now.

I do see some issues for the project if they miss people from the list.
Voting in committers can be seen as a pain, especially if it is a
potentially large list (I'm fairly certain that the initial committers list
here is the largest of any project so far at Apache).

I also want to make sure that the infra assessment is done before voting
starts, just to make sure we're all in alignment on what is being expected.

John

On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 6:28 AM Stian Soiland-Reyes <stain@apache.org>
wrote:

> I'm very convinced :-)  I think the Netbeans proposal is ready for a
> [VOTE]!
>
>
>
> On 22 September 2016 at 13:57, Wade Chandler <consult@wadechandler.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sep 22, 2016, at 08:27, Shane Curcuru <asf@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jochen Wiedmann wrote on 9/22/16 1:43 AM:
> >>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 7:18 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <
> roman@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Still, the question remain -- for somebody like that, what would be
a
> criteria
> >>>> to be added as a committer after the project enters incubation?
> >>>
> >>> Projects decision.
> >>
> >> Exactly so.  This would be a podling just like every other podling, and
> >> the IPMC would expect the PPMC to start operating like an Apache
> >> project.  That is, when new people come to the podling and contribute
> >> work, and help the work of the podling, that after a time the PPMC will
> >> discuss them, then vote them in as new committers.
> >>
> >> Past merit (i.e. past contributions) is a great help to a new
> >> contributor to a project, both because it's easier to get started, and
> >> because the community already has a feel for how they act and can help.
> >> But it in no way IMO directly leads to current merit.  Old contributors
> >> normally would be voted in as committers only once they actually start
> >> doing new work on the project.
> >
> > Perhaps we need to clarify what you mean by “old contributor” … Do you
> mean those currently contributing to the imported project, those who have
> contributed at some time in the past, but not in X days/months, or anyone
> not on the initial committer list? If the latter, then why would this be
> true for a current OSS project coming to ASF? If this is exactly the case,
> then more emphasis is put on the initial committer list IMO, and that seems
> an unnecessary distraction, and an artificial limit, but if it must be that
> way it must, and if not, then great, but please clarify.
> >
> > I ask this because I recently contributed some things for Groovy
> support, and intend to work quite a bit on those features. I have
> contributed quite a bit to the form (UI editor), J2EE, and Java SE modules
> in the past. I don’t want to suddenly be hindered just because the project
> moves to the ASF where I have to “start over”; I have invested quite a
> number of years into NetBeans and it’s community.
> >
> >> On Sep 22, 2016, at 07:00, Stian Soiland-Reyes <stain@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Agree - but the initial committer list is also an opportunity to show
> >> you really mean open development, and that it's not just business as
> >> usual with Friends & Family on the list.
> >>
> >
> > Understood, but the impression still has to be on the community all the
> rules of merit apply regardless of perception. I have faith Gj and many I
> know on that initial list will make sure anyone who has made solid code
> contributions to NB, who also want to contribute in the ASF, will be fast
> tracked per prior NB community decisions. We are operating off this
> assumption now; community and Oracle included per my understanding.
> >
> >> One of the freedoms a project gains from moving to ASF is (somewhat)
> >> relief from institutional political considerations.  A new intern at a
> >> company would no longer just be given carte blance write access
> >> without first engaging with the whole community and earning merit
> >> through contributions. Of course each community decides how high or
> >> low the bar should be to earn committership - but the bar should be
> >> the same for anyone.
> >>
> > I 100% agree with this. I think it is definitely that the rules have to
> apply to everyone equally including employees of a company including the
> donor. I don’t imagine someone who falls outside categories of merit in the
> current NB process now should suddenly be committers at ASF. Committers
> should be committers. Those who were well on their way to earn committer
> status should be considered, and it should be rare they are not promoted.
> Those not committing code or submitting patches now, should start from the
> premise they have to earn committer rights, and the project should enforce
> that as a minimum; merit isn’t about free trophies or we’d all have
> doctorates or be in the NFL or NBA :-D
> >
> >>
> >> I found for several podlings that people (myself included) who were
> >> perhaps dormant "contributors" before the Incubator 'woke up' after
> >> being added as an equal peer on the initial list. The beginning of a
> >> podling; while sometimes struggling a bit with bootstrapping, is also
> >> a chance for a project to review many of its practices and to build
> >> common ownership - reduce the "us and them" feeling.
> >>
> >
> > Sure; IMHO a sane committer of old should be a sane committer of new; if
> they want to be involved. My understanding in the current NB processes that
> is true now. Certainly in an OSS world people come and work as they can,
> and sometimes they can do more than other times. Sometimes they necessarily
> have to become dormant; children, jobs, friends, life… In the NB community
> we understand this and respect it; a work life balance.
> >
> >> I think Netbeans has the balance somewhat right - but I would hope
> >> there would be more engagement on their existing lists to more openly
> >> invite anyone who wants to join; or at least make it clear that the
> >> whole of the community (read: mailing list) gets to influence project
> >> decisions.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, everyone on the lists “influences” the project now, but not
> everyone on the mailing list gets “committer” rights or the same influence;
> even in Apache projects that I have seen. We have a merit based process for
> that now. In the ASF us non-Oracle employee committers should then gain a
> higher level of influence as it becomes community driven versus single
> entity driven; we certainly have to step up though! … like Spiderman’s
> Uncle Ben said … great power; great responsibility.
> >
> > My assumption or expectation perhaps is roughly (and I imagine it will
> be close) 1) if you were a committer to NB, per its already existing rules,
> then you are in 2) if you were already submitting patches to “show you know
> what you are doing” per the current rules, then you are in 3) if you were
> not an active contributor, then you have to step up and show merit. This
> essentially models the current NB process, and per my involvement with
> different Apache projects over the years, is roughly like a lot of them.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Wade
> >
> >
> >
> > ===================
> >
> > Wade Chandler
> > e: consult@wadechandler.com
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Stian Soiland-Reyes
> http://orcid.org/0000-0001-9842-9718
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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