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From Geertjan Wielenga <geertjan.wiele...@googlemail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal
Date Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:30:18 GMT
OK. Before the vote, will work on making the initial contributors list as
complete as possible.

What is the process for doing that? Do I simply make changes directly in
the proposal? Do I make the changes public here before adding them to the
proposal? Do I work directly with the mentors via e-mails to discuss and
then after than make the changes?

Thanks,

Geertjan

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 10:02 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org>
wrote:

> Hi Bertrand,
>
> Responses in line.
>
> On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 11:54 PM Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Geertjan,
> >
> > I won't have time to look at your whole message now, just a few
> > clarifications as far as committers/PMC is concerned.
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 7:50 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > ...Anyone on the list
> > > will, once the proposal has been voted on and accepted, automatically
> be
> > > contributors to the Apache NetBeans project...
> >
> > They will be commiters to be precise.
> >
>
> Agreed, the way I interpretted Geertjan is that Netbeans contributor == ASF
> committer.  They don't have the role of PMC/PPMC presently, so we'll see
> how that evolves.
>
>
> >
> > > Anyone not on the list will
> > > need to be voted in by the initial contributors, which is a process
> that
> > > could be fast, but is still a process and can be avoided by inclusion
> in
> > > the initial contributors list...
> >
> > It's a simple process, the incubating project could very well have one
> vote
> > for N people if that makes sense and they are all wanted.
> >
>
> Its simple but hard.  And no, I don't think we want bulk votes.  What if
> someone is +1 add Mark S and -1 add Bertrand D?  At least when its come up
> to the IPMC previously, we've recommended against it.
>
>
> >
> > > Everyone on the initial contributors list is
> > > automatically part of the PMC.
> >
> > There's no PMC for an incubating project, just a PPMC as per
> > http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
> >
> > That group has no formal power, only the Incubator PMC can vote on the
> > podling's releases or make other decisions which are binding at the
> > foundation level.
> >
> > In practice, you are correct that the PPMC is a PMC in training, but
> really
> > in a podling being a PPMC member doesn't make a difference IMO.
> >
>
> It does.  PPMC has one important job - vote on adding more people.  We hope
> that they will learn to look at their releases very carefully while under
> incubation.
>
>
> >
> > > ...Anyone on the list when the project leaves
> > > incubation gets write access to the project for the rest of their
> life...
> >
> > That's correct, but there can be a difference between the committers and
> > PMC members once the project graduates. As a mentor, when graduating I
> > would not accept a PMC member who has not contributed during incubation
> for
> > example, whereas a committer that hasn't really been active during
> > incubation is harmless.
> >
> > Committers don't have formal power once the project graduates, and if
> they
> > don't behave their commits rights can easily be suspended, temporarily or
> > permanently. That very rarely happens, just mentioning it to clarify the
> > risks.
> >
>
> That's... odd to say the least.  I'm not aware of any specific cases,
> doesn't mean it hasn't' happened, but I can't think of any cases where it
> has (other than one special case recently of someone being asked out of the
> organization...)
>
>
> >
> > In summary, what you don't want in an Apache project is poisonous PMC
> > members, so in my view to be on the PMC once graduating people will have
> to
> > demonstrate during incubation that they are making positive contributions
> > to it - just being on the initial list of committers doesn't count
> towards
> > that, in my book.
> >
> > > ...If the above is accurate, we do need to work on the initial
> > contributors
> > > list prior to voting on the proposal, quite aside from the infra
> > assessment...
> >
> > I still don't think that's required and should be avoided if it delays
> the
> > vote for NetBeans acceptance, as the list of committers can be modified
> > during incubation with just a bit of additional work.
> >
>
> I don't think this will add a lot of work.  I even gave him the idea of
> just generating a script of past committers based on commit history.
>
>
> >
> > If you still want do expand the list during incubation, best is to come
> up
> > with a list of additional names that the existing NetBeans community
> feels
> > deserve to be on that list (maybe based on votes on the existing NetBeans
> > community's channels), and have the NetBeans mentors accept that new
> list.
> >
>
> Agreed 100%.  If someone hasn't added anything in a while, has no interest
> in developing more, and the community doesn't see much benefit, they
> shouldn't be on the list.  However, if that person does start contributing,
> please pay close attention to see if they're interested in coming back.
>
>
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
>

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