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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
Date Sun, 25 Sep 2016 15:49:50 GMT
My last sentence below is too terse... I know NetBeans is a different project to AOO. I should
not draw a direct comparis0on between the two projects. I hope we can avoid a long thread
on how Net Beans is more attractive to developers than other end user projects. However, my
more general point of user numbers not being a good indicator is remains.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Gardler
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 8:48 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache
> NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
> 
> I do not sign the check, but I am responsible for the budgets of the foundation.
> I'm not saying I would not consider such a request (and you could go straight
> to the board if I did). I'm saying a case needs to be made rather than a simple
> request for cash (see other mail).
> 
> As for the numbers, user numbers are irrelevant. If that were the metric of
> success for an open source project then Open Office would be thriving.
> 
> Ross
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Emilian Bold [mailto:emilian.bold@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 2:09 AM
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache
> > NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
> >
> > Ross Gardler is the current president of the ASF so in a way he does
> > sign the check and should be worried about these things.
> >
> > Still, the number of Java developers is only growing and they need an
> > IDE and NetBeans is a major IDE with 1.5 million individual users!
> > This number is probably conservative since it excludes all the people
> > behind
> > (corporate) firewalls.
> >
> > Helping NetBeans would be for the public good and it really does help
> > the other Apache properties such as Ant, Maven, Tomcat, Groovy, etc.
> >
> > Business wise, NetBeans is a great deal for Apache. The netbeans.org
> > domain alone could pull in ads the cost of infrastructure (although
> > ASF might have a policy against ads, etc, etc)
> >
> >
> > --emi
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com');>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that
> > > > a move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest
> > > > that NetBeans is seeing.
> > >
> > >
> > > OK, we do need to see the basis for that assertion. I think the only
> > > thing that cannot be tolerated is assertions without basis. Where is
> > > the evidence of "the decline in interest that NetBeans is seeing"?
> > > Because, speaking on behalf of the NetBeans community, we are not
> > > seeing that, at all. That evidence is not there or, if it is, we
> > > need to know
> > what it is.
> > >
> > > Gj
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler
> > > <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The ASF need to justify spending an extra $10k per year in this
> > > > one project at the expense of that $10k going to other projects.
> > > >
> > > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that
> > > > a move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest
> > > > that NetBeans is seeing.
> > > >
> > > > It may sound trivial, but we can support three "traditional" ASF
> > > > projects for NetBeans budget. As a charity we need to think
> > > > carefully about how we spend our money. A solid argument that this
> > > > would reverse the downward trend for NetBeans will go a long way
> > > > to reassuring me (as one member,
> > > but
> > > > also as the person ultimately responsible for paying such a budget
> > > request
> > > > to the board).
> > > >
> > > > Ross
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Twitter: @rgardler
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ted.dunning@gmail.com');>>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 4:04:34 PM
> > > > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general@incubator.apache.org');>
> > > > Subject: Re: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS]
> > > > Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
> > > >
> > > > Should this request come from IPMC? Seems like it should be at
> > > > least a
> > > coop
> > > > request between infra (who get the budget and the operational
> > > > onus) and incubator (who cause the problem).
> > > >
> > > > Certainly the budget shouldn't come to the IPMC if approved.
> > > >
> > > > I will work with the board to determine the best form.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Chris Mattmann
> > > > <mattmann@apache.org
> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mattmann@apache.org');>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Daniel this is great work. Thank you for outlining this. Wow!
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 9/24/16, 3:17 AM, "Daniel Gruno" <humbedooh@apache.org
> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','humbedooh@apache.org');>> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >     Hi folks,
> > > > >
> > > > >     I've been going over the requirements for NetBeans
> > > > > infrastructure,
> > > > it's
> > > > >     ballpark costs, bandwidth, machines needed and so forth, and
> > > > > the
> > > > cliff
> > > > >     notes are as follows:
> > > > >
> > > > >     - 40-50TB/month in traffic required (mostly downloads+plugins)
> > > > >     - 8-13 machines/VMS are required
> > > > >     - Ballpark hardware costs are between $3k and $10k per year,
> > > > depending
> > > > >       on how much we can move to existing infrastructure and how
> > > > > close
> > > we
> > > > >       come to the original setup. The most likely figure we are
> > > > > working with
> > > > >       is $4.9k, but we should be prepared for a larger cost,
> > > > > just in
> > > > case.
> > > > >     - The maintenance will be split between infra (downloads,
> > > > > web site,
> > > > CI,
> > > > >       new build machines) and the project (services, plugins,
> > > > statistics),
> > > > >       which will undoubtedly incur additional costs in terms of
> > > > > infra
> > > > time
> > > > >       spent on this, possibly to the tune of $10-20k in the
> > > > > initial
> > > > phase.
> > > > >
> > > > >     Certain services like the plugins hosting will rely on Legal
> > > > > giving
> > > > the
> > > > >     go-ahead for it, otherwise we'll have to find other people
> > > > > willing
> > > to
> > > > >     host this.
> > > > >
> > > > >     Other items like downloads may be offset by CDN providers
> > > > > offering their
> > > > >     assistance, but we should be prepared for this not being the
> > > > > case
> > > > from
> > > > >     the beginning, thus the 40-50TB/month. Likewise, some machine
> costs
> > > > >     may be offset by cloud providers offering services for free.
> > > > >
> > > > >     Thus, I would submit to the IPMC that they consider asking
> > > > > the
> > > board
> > > > > for
> > > > >     a budget of roughly $10k per year for the NetBeans project,
> > > > > as well
> > > > as
> > > > >     the additional time required of Infrastructure to implement
> > > > > this
> > > into
> > > > >     the existing ASF infra. As we may be able to pool resources
> > > > > and
> > > > utilize
> > > > >     the new hardware for multiple projects, the cost may go down
in the
> > > > >     coming years, but this is the baseline I suggest we consider
when
> > > > >     approving NetBeans as a new podling.
> > > > >
> > > > >     With regards,
> > > > >     Daniel.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >     ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > ---------
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> > > rg
> > > ');>
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > --emi

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