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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
Date Sun, 25 Sep 2016 15:47:55 GMT
I do not sign the check, but I am responsible for the budgets of the foundation. I'm not saying
I would not consider such a request (and you could go straight to the board if I did). I'm
saying a case needs to be made rather than a simple request for cash (see other mail).

As for the numbers, user numbers are irrelevant. If that were the metric of success for an
open source project then Open Office would be thriving.

Ross

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emilian Bold [mailto:emilian.bold@gmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 2:09 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans
> Incubator Proposal)
> 
> Ross Gardler is the current president of the ASF so in a way he does sign the
> check and should be worried about these things.
> 
> Still, the number of Java developers is only growing and they need an IDE and
> NetBeans is a major IDE with 1.5 million individual users! This number is
> probably conservative since it excludes all the people behind
> (corporate) firewalls.
> 
> Helping NetBeans would be for the public good and it really does help the
> other Apache properties such as Ant, Maven, Tomcat, Groovy, etc.
> 
> Business wise, NetBeans is a great deal for Apache. The netbeans.org domain
> alone could pull in ads the cost of infrastructure (although ASF might have a
> policy against ads, etc, etc)
> 
> 
> --emi
> 
> On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com');>> wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > >
> > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that a
> > > move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest
> > > that NetBeans is seeing.
> >
> >
> > OK, we do need to see the basis for that assertion. I think the only
> > thing that cannot be tolerated is assertions without basis. Where is
> > the evidence of "the decline in interest that NetBeans is seeing"?
> > Because, speaking on behalf of the NetBeans community, we are not
> > seeing that, at all. That evidence is not there or, if it is, we need to know
> what it is.
> >
> > Gj
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Ross Gardler
> > <Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com');>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The ASF need to justify spending an extra $10k per year in this one
> > > project at the expense of that $10k going to other projects.
> > >
> > > Don't make the request until the IPMC can present an argument that a
> > > move of NetBeans to the ASF will reverse the decline in interest
> > > that NetBeans is seeing.
> > >
> > > It may sound trivial, but we can support three "traditional" ASF
> > > projects for NetBeans budget. As a charity we need to think
> > > carefully about how we spend our money. A solid argument that this
> > > would reverse the downward trend for NetBeans will go a long way to
> > > reassuring me (as one member,
> > but
> > > also as the person ultimately responsible for paying such a budget
> > request
> > > to the board).
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Twitter: @rgardler
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','ted.dunning@gmail.com');>>
> > > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2016 4:04:34 PM
> > > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','general@incubator.apache.org');>
> > > Subject: Re: Preliminary NetBeans cost findings (was: [DISCUSS]
> > > Apache NetBeans Incubator Proposal)
> > >
> > > Should this request come from IPMC? Seems like it should be at least
> > > a
> > coop
> > > request between infra (who get the budget and the operational onus)
> > > and incubator (who cause the problem).
> > >
> > > Certainly the budget shouldn't come to the IPMC if approved.
> > >
> > > I will work with the board to determine the best form.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 7:57 PM, Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mattmann@apache.org');>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Daniel this is great work. Thank you for outlining this. Wow!
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9/24/16, 3:17 AM, "Daniel Gruno" <humbedooh@apache.org
> > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','humbedooh@apache.org');>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >     Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > >     I've been going over the requirements for NetBeans
> > > > infrastructure,
> > > it's
> > > >     ballpark costs, bandwidth, machines needed and so forth, and
> > > > the
> > > cliff
> > > >     notes are as follows:
> > > >
> > > >     - 40-50TB/month in traffic required (mostly downloads+plugins)
> > > >     - 8-13 machines/VMS are required
> > > >     - Ballpark hardware costs are between $3k and $10k per year,
> > > depending
> > > >       on how much we can move to existing infrastructure and how
> > > > close
> > we
> > > >       come to the original setup. The most likely figure we are
> > > > working with
> > > >       is $4.9k, but we should be prepared for a larger cost, just
> > > > in
> > > case.
> > > >     - The maintenance will be split between infra (downloads, web
> > > > site,
> > > CI,
> > > >       new build machines) and the project (services, plugins,
> > > statistics),
> > > >       which will undoubtedly incur additional costs in terms of
> > > > infra
> > > time
> > > >       spent on this, possibly to the tune of $10-20k in the
> > > > initial
> > > phase.
> > > >
> > > >     Certain services like the plugins hosting will rely on Legal
> > > > giving
> > > the
> > > >     go-ahead for it, otherwise we'll have to find other people
> > > > willing
> > to
> > > >     host this.
> > > >
> > > >     Other items like downloads may be offset by CDN providers
> > > > offering their
> > > >     assistance, but we should be prepared for this not being the
> > > > case
> > > from
> > > >     the beginning, thus the 40-50TB/month. Likewise, some machine costs
> > > >     may be offset by cloud providers offering services for free.
> > > >
> > > >     Thus, I would submit to the IPMC that they consider asking the
> > board
> > > > for
> > > >     a budget of roughly $10k per year for the NetBeans project, as
> > > > well
> > > as
> > > >     the additional time required of Infrastructure to implement
> > > > this
> > into
> > > >     the existing ASF infra. As we may be able to pool resources
> > > > and
> > > utilize
> > > >     the new hardware for multiple projects, the cost may go down in the
> > > >     coming years, but this is the baseline I suggest we consider when
> > > >     approving NetBeans as a new podling.
> > > >
> > > >     With regards,
> > > >     Daniel.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ---------
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> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> --emi
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