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From Lenni Kuff <lsk...@cloudera.com>
Subject Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Date Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:28:17 GMT
Thanks Joe. That was a powerful read and very inspiring. This should be
posted on a wiki someplace.

I agree. This seems like an important topic to revisit on our list to see
how the community feels - and more generally, discuss more topics (big,
small, new, old) more frequently moving forward.

Thanks,
Lenni

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Chris.  So what I'm saying is, instead of adopting the position
> that "we" have made up our minds on this matter well before joining the
> incubator, why not recognize that at this point your community now includes
> new committers and new community members following along for which their
> voices have not been heard from on this matter.  Once you recognize that
> the
> community has changed a bit, it makes sense to revisit a chestnut like this
> on-
> list.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 12:26 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
> > +1 to the below.
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> > Chief Architect
> > Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
> > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> > Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
> > Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> > WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
> > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com>
> > Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 8:49 PM
> > To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
> > graduation
> >
> > >Just to contrast this with the IPMC itself, we discuss everything here,
> > >including past decisions.
> > >Almost everything that happens here is a community decision, and we try
> to
> > >move with near
> > >unanimous consent.  It is generally hard to figure out what roles people
> > >have without some formal
> > >VOTE where people indicate a binding status on it.
> > >
> > >That is what you should aspire to on your dev list- it really shouldn't
> > >matter what roles people have
> > >unless we need to be looking at a release.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:37 PM, Joe Schaefer <joesuf4@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> This may sound a bit pedantic, but the "Sentry project" isn't capable
> of
> > >> considering anything.
> > >> Either you are referring to a decision of the committers or the PPMC
> or
> > >> the community, all
> > >> of which requires some discussion over time about any position being
> > >> taken.  I would consider
> > >> it unusual for the project participants to be unanimous on a situation
> > >> like this or other related
> > >> matters, and certainly opinions evolve over time.
> > >>
> > >> Nobody should put themselves in a position of speaking on behalf of
> the
> > >> project.  That is why
> > >> we have communication channels in the first place and generally refer
> to
> > >> on list decisions.
> > >> The individual positions of the participants should be reflected in
> any
> > >> consensus-based decision
> > >> making.  Not to say everything must be voted on, but collective
> decision
> > >> making requires
> > >> open communication, preferably on public channels.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Lenni Kuff <lskuff@cloudera.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> I think there is some confusion here. The Sentry project has never
> > >>> considered Committer == PMC. The recent website change was only to
> help
> > >>> clarify the roles of each of the members of the project, it was not
> the
> > >>> result of any decision being made.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> Lenni
> > >>>
> > >>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 3:03 PM, P. Taylor Goetz <ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Nov 4, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Lenni Kuff <lskuff@cloudera.com>
> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> > >> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 10:05 AM, P. Taylor Goetz
> > >>><ptgoetz@gmail.com>
> > >>> > >> wrote:
> > >>> > >>
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 11:32 AM, Joe Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net>
> > >>>wrote:
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> * I would invite folks with access to go to Sentry's
private
> list
> > >>> and
> > >>> > >>> look over discussions about adding new contributors,
and
> > >>>discussions
> > >>> > >>> about the project in general.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> I took a look.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> From a community growth perspective, I see them adding
new
> > >>> committers,
> > >>> > >>> which is a good thing. What I don’t see is any
discussion at
> all
> > >>> about
> > >>> > >>> adding PPMC members, nor any discussion about why
they chose to
> > >>>go
> > >>> the
> > >>> > >>> Committer != PPMC route.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> In a thread related to the first new committer being
added [1],
> > >>>it
> > >>> is
> > >>> > >>> pointed out that the podling website stated that
Sentry was
> > >>> Committer
> > >>> > ==
> > >>> > >>> PMC, but that the new member vote was only for Committer.
At
> that
> > >>> point
> > >>> > >> it
> > >>> > >>> looks like the website was updated to reflect Committer
!= PMC.
> > >>>From
> > >>> > that
> > >>> > >>> point on, all new member votes were for Committer
only, and
> there
> > >>> were
> > >>> > no
> > >>> > >>> discussions regarding adding new PMC members or promoting
> > >>> committers to
> > >>> > >> the
> > >>> > >>> PMC role.
> > >>> > >>>
> > >>> > >>> What I find slightly disconcerting is that there
doesn’t seem
> to
> > >>>be
> > >>> any
> > >>> > >>> consideration or discussion around growing the PPMC
and why
> > >>>that’s
> > >>> > >>> important. Sure they have 20-odd PPMC members from
the initial
> > >>> > committers
> > >>> > >>> list, so it would take a pretty large exodus to render
the
> > >>>project
> > >>> > unable
> > >>> > >>> to function, but I don’t see anything to indicate
that they
> > >>> understand
> > >>> > >> the
> > >>> > >>> function and importance of growing the PPMC.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > Background: I am a Sentry community member.
> > >>> > >
> > >>> > > I would have to disagree with this. We have identified lack
of
> new
> > >>> PPMC
> > >>> > > members as an issue and called out in our board reports.
We are
> > >>>also
> > >>> > > encouraging non-PPMC members to get involved in ways they
can
> > >>>become
> > >>> PPMC
> > >>> > > members - for example, we have had non-PPMC members run two
of
> the
> > >>> last
> > >>> > > Sentry releases. As mentioned earlier, it's not like there
is no
> > >>> progress
> > >>> > > here, we have people who are very close (and I agree that
we can
> > >>>do a
> > >>> > > better job discussing this on or private@ list). We are 
also
> > >>> > encouraging
> > >>> > > others in the community to step up, giving them opportunities,
> and
> > >>> really
> > >>> > > striving to build a community around the project.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Fair enough.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > Can you point me to the discussion where the project decided to
go
> > >>>with
> > >>> > Committer != PMC over Committer == PMC?
> > >>> >
> > >>> > From an outsider's perspective, that decision just looks like
a
> > >>>single
> > >>> > commit, without any public discussion, which speaks to the concerns
> > >>> others
> > >>> > have raised about decisions being made in private.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > -Taylor
> > >>> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > >>> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> >
>

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