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From "Dennis E. Hamilton" <orc...@apache.org>
Subject RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and graduation
Date Sat, 07 Nov 2015 21:17:55 GMT
If the mentor brought the considerations to a podling for them to reconcile
and record, that would be great.  If that were guidance to mentors, that
would be great also.

What concerns me is that podlings of newly-arrived initial committers may
tend to see whatever the practice that is suggested to them as being gospel
and this is carried from one PPMC to another.

I have seen too much customization too early and there is then not even some
sort of common practice that can be used even as training wheels.  It is
like trying to improvise jazz when you take your first instrument out of the
box.  

Bothers me.  YMMV [;<).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ross Gardler [mailto:Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 7, 2015 12:58
> To: general@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Subject: RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
> graduation
> 
> There should be no recommendation for podlings. Mentors should guide the
> podling to making the right decision for their community by discussing
> the pros and cons of each model.
> 
> The idea of a mentor bringing their preference, or worse the IPMC having
> a "default" is problematic.
> 
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton<mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org>
> Sent: ‎11/‎6/‎2015 9:35 AM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org<mailto:general@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: RE: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
> graduation
> 
> I think there is a difference between what TLPs do and what the
> recommended approach for Podlings is.
> 
> My impression, based on limited podling experience, is that the default
> tends to be PPMC == committer.
> 
> Thanks for raising the notion of looking at why committers are *not*
> moved to the PMC of a TLP after some period of time, though.  My
> question, as a PMC member, would be whether or not we are holding the
> reins too tight at the expense of both community and sustainability.  An
> useful danger sign, that.
> 
>  - Dennis
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Greg Reddin [mailto:gredbug@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Friday, November 6, 2015 06:22
> > To: general@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Concerning Sentry: A disagreement over the Apache Way and
> > graduation
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 7:58 AM, Rich Bowen <rbowen@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> > > On 11/05/2015 12:02 AM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> > >> Committership is the right to do work on the project. PMC
> membership
> > is the
> > >> right to participate in governance.  People left in the nebulous
> > state
> > >> between
> > >> committership and PMC membership for long periods of time more than
> > likely
> > >> will give up in frustration for not being trusted enough to govern
> > their
> > >> own work.
> > >
> > >
> > > Most of the older projects at the Foundation do not have PMC ==
> > > Committer. Notably, httpd. The notion that committers are
> > automatically
> > > PMC is a fairly new innovation. As it happens, it's an innovation
> that
> > I
> > > wholeheartedly support and recommend, but it's a minority of
> projects
> > > that have this policy. If you follow board reports, you'll notice
> that
> > > PMC additions and Committer additions are seldom coincident.
> >
> > In further support of Joe's point, for most of the projects I've been
> > involved with, the PMC promotion was almost automatic and occurred
> > within about 6 months of committership. The committer-only period was
> > just a probationary period to make sure a person was not going to
> > abuse his/her privileges. An invite to committership comes with an
> > unspoken assumption that we want you to help govern the project, but
> > let's start with giving you access. I don't know that I ever saw
> > anyone stay as committer-only for an extended period of time.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> 
> 
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