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From Ross Gardler <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: [DISCUSS] Mentor neutrality policy
Date Fri, 09 Oct 2015 21:31:04 GMT
No. Meaning that starting from a place of no-trust in an environment where trust is critical
is wrong.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 2:26 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Mentor neutrality policy

Meaning: proactively trying to doing the right thing, trying to define boundaries before wrongdoing
happens, is wrong?

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

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On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 10:51 PM, Chris Douglas <cdouglas@apache.org> wrote:

> Daniel-
>
> If you have these concerns about mentors, a TLP proposal, or even an 
> active TLP substantiated only by private information: notify the board 
> via board-private@. That's why it's there.
>
> The proposal accuses mentors of selling influence, and acting contrary 
> to the foundation's interest. That is by definition a problem to which 
> we react, with proof of guilt. "Proactively" treating volunteers as 
> suspect demands that mentors prove their innocence. Assuming guilt is 
> not "proactive," but uncivil and immoral.
>
> There are also practical objections. Every IPMC member has a binding 
> vote on decisions made by the incubator, period. IPMC members may 
> voluntarily recuse themselves, but a policy that suppresses the votes 
> of "suspicious" groups is invalid.
>
> The TLP resolution is only recommended by the IPMC. Anything achieved 
> by this proposal is better implemented by the board considering that 
> recommendation in context- including evidence provided privately- and 
> rejecting improper proposals with actionable feedback to the PPMC. -C
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > Does there always have to be an actual problem before we can propose 
> > a policy? must we always be reactive instead of proactive?
> >
> > Yes, I am in a way implying that some mentors are, perhaps, not 
> > neutral in their work. I will not back it up with specific names or 
> > contexts, as I don't want to take a trip to lawsuit town for things 
> > I cannot back up with publicly available information.
> >
> > I don't find this to be uncivil accusations - can you outline a 
> > specific segment that you find uncivil? I am proposing a set of 
> > basic rules - which is naturally up for discussion and improvement - 
> > that would potentially alleviate us from having some nasty 
> > discussions - whether they be public or private - about the 
> > neutrality and honesty of recommendations, and hopefully ensure we 
> > have a more leveled playing field in the incubator.
> >
> > I'll stop here, as my eyesight is playing a trick on me today and 
> > not allowing me to see what I type.
> >
> > With regards,
> > Daniel.
> >
> > On 10/09/2015 08:03 PM, Chris Douglas wrote:
> >> What problem does this solve?
> >>
> >> This proposal lacks context. It implies that mentors are not 
> >> neutral, and that they are motivated by interests not shared by the 
> >> ASF. But it does not outline the merits of that belief, neither 
> >> does it specify how this proposal would address them. Instead of 
> >> allowing those definitions to float, this discussion would be more 
> >> productive if it were about some concrete problems for which there 
> >> is evidence. Yet another thread of rude responses to uncivil 
> >> accusations is unproductive, even if it is an IPMC tradition. -C
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 8:07 AM, Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>> Hi Incubator folks,
> >>>
> >>> I would like to propose we adopt a mentor neutrality policy for 
> >>> incubating podlings:
> >>>
> >>> - A mentor must not be financially tied to the project or its
> incubation
> >>> status.
> >>> - A mentor must not have a vested interest in incubating, 
> >>> graduating or dismantling a podling that goes beyond the general 
> >>> Apache mission
> >>> - A mentor must not be affiliated with the entity granting the 
> >>> code (company or original project community)
> >>>
> >>> Furthermore, I would like to see this extended to votes on 
> >>> graduating
> or
> >>> retiring podlings, so that only people with no organizational 
> >>> (aparty from the ASF) or financial ties to the project (or the 
> >>> companies behind
> >>> it) can cast a binding vote on graduation or retirement.
> >>>
> >>> This would essentially mean:
> >>>
> >>> - If you work for a company (or are hired as consultant/advisor) 
> >>> that
> is
> >>> entering a project into incubation, you cannot mentor it nor vote 
> >>> for/against its incubation, graduation or retirement.
> >>> - If you are a in the original community behind the project, you 
> >>> cannot mentor it nor vote for/against it.
> >>>
> >>> I believe this would create a neutral mentorship whose sole 
> >>> mission is to guide podlings with the interests of the ASF in mind.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please do discuss this. If there is (mostly) positive feedback, I 
> >>> would like to, at some point, have a vote on including this in the 
> >>> Incubator policy. I realize this would cut down on the number of 
> >>> potential mentors, and I would ask that more people step up to the 
> >>> challenge of mentoring if adopted.
> >>>
> >>> With regards,
> >>> Daniel
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>
> >>
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> >
> >
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>
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