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From Daniel Gruno <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Mentor neutrality policy
Date Sat, 10 Oct 2015 20:08:46 GMT
Hi Chris,
As explained later in this thread, my choice of words in the initial
proposal weren't the best suited. I fully agree that Sam's suggestion is
better (as often happens when you propose something and solicit
feedback), and as such, I have proposed a changed text (sent yesterday
to this list) and would like some feedback on that instead, if possible.
I believe that addresses the concerns of many people.

I don't believe that having an interest in the project should prevent
you from working with it (imagine if that applied to committers ;), but
I still do believe that recommendation and the final review of a podling
should be carried out by someone with an arm's length distance from the
podling. I also believe we could improve on how the incubator operates
and perhaps separate such podling reviews from mentorship itself, but I
fully realize that it's not something we can simply magically change
with a few lines of text in a document.

With regards,

On 10/10/2015 04:49 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) wrote:
> So here’s my elaboration.
> The proposal below would have prevented me from ever helping
> projects to the ASF and convincing them that it may be a good
> home for them. I’ve always had financial ties to a project’s
> Incubation status. In many cases, projects being at the ASF,
> and my involvement in them has assisted my mission of doing
> scientific research and helping win proposals and so forth for
> NASA and other agencies.
> Further, I’ve many times been at the same institution in which
> the project has originated from before the ASF.
> I think I’ve done a good job on the projects I’ve helped to
> bring here and they have been successful too and have overall
> benefitted the ASF.
> This rings to me very similar to Roy’s email circa 2012 I believe
> in which in the Incubator we tried to force the diversity requirement
> as a graduation requirement, and Roy succinctly explained that we
> can’t punish e.g., a podling for having people all from the same
> institution. That would punish that institution for hiring folks
> for open source who work on code at the ASF. Diversity is always
> a strong property of a podling as I feel it makes it more resilient
> but it’s not a hard requirement. I feel the same thing in this thread.
> Cheers,
> Chris
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Chief Architect
> Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
> Email:
> WWW:
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jpluser <>
> Reply-To: "" <>
> Date: Friday, October 9, 2015 at 5:14 PM
> To: "" <>
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Mentor neutrality policy
>> I do not agree with this proposal I will elaborate more later
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> On Oct 9, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Daniel Gruno <> wrote:
>>> Hi Incubator folks,
>>> I would like to propose we adopt a mentor neutrality policy for
>>> incubating podlings:
>>> - A mentor must not be financially tied to the project or its incubation
>>> status.
>>> - A mentor must not have a vested interest in incubating, graduating or
>>> dismantling a podling that goes beyond the general Apache mission
>>> - A mentor must not be affiliated with the entity granting the code
>>> (company or original project community)
>>> Furthermore, I would like to see this extended to votes on graduating or
>>> retiring podlings, so that only people with no organizational (aparty
>>> from the ASF) or financial ties to the project (or the companies behind
>>> it) can cast a binding vote on graduation or retirement.
>>> This would essentially mean:
>>> - If you work for a company (or are hired as consultant/advisor) that is
>>> entering a project into incubation, you cannot mentor it nor vote
>>> for/against its incubation, graduation or retirement.
>>> - If you are a in the original community behind the project, you cannot
>>> mentor it nor vote for/against it.
>>> I believe this would create a neutral mentorship whose sole mission is
>>> to guide podlings with the interests of the ASF in mind.
>>> Please do discuss this. If there is (mostly) positive feedback, I would
>>> like to, at some point, have a vote on including this in the Incubator
>>> policy. I realize this would cut down on the number of potential
>>> mentors, and I would ask that more people step up to the challenge of
>>> mentoring if adopted.
>>> With regards,
>>> Daniel
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