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From Rob Vesse <rve...@dotnetrdf.org>
Subject Re: Should Apache VOTEs be in a first-come, first-serve queue?
Date Tue, 15 Sep 2015 09:17:59 GMT
Various comments inline:

On 15/09/2015 03:41, "Marko Rodriguez" <okrammarko@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>> Thanks for making a clear statement because it lets me focus on the
>> question that may be central to this discussion: can you tell us why
>> did you guys decided to join ASF in the first place? This is not a
>>baited
>> question: I'm genuinely curious about what kind of expectations did
>> you have when joining and what did you want to achieve?
>> 
>> Because, you see, a project that's part of the foundation can't simply
>> be just 'using' the foundation, it actually has to become part of the
>> foundation, in my mind.
>
>For me personally, I wanted TinkerPop to be apart of Apache because no
>one has won a lawsuit against Apache and I wanted that protecting me and
>my code as an open source software developer.
>---------------------------------------

Well AFAIK no-one has actually gone so far as to prosecute a lawsuit
against Apache so this may have been a poor motivator

I'll assume that what you actually meant that you wanted the legal
protection of the foundation (or more specifically if memory serves some
of your larger corporate users wanted this and pointed you towards the ASF)

>
>
>>> I don't expect the users of TinkerPop to have to write my code, they
>>>are
>>> there to use it.
>> 
>> Well, that a bit black-n-white. Certainly folks who don't want to write
>> TinkerPop code can't be forcefully compelled to do so. Yet, somehow,
>> the way you phrased it makes me suspect that you see it as a firewall
>> between the two communities of users vs. developers. Am I reading
>> this wrong?
>
>99.99999999% of people using TinkerPop are not submitting bug reports,
>pull requests, ideas, community "votes" on directions, @Deprecation
>decisions, etc. I do not have any fantasies that these people should
>participate in a bi-directional engagement with TinkerPop. Why should
>they, they are using the software to solve their particular problems and
>could care less about the "TinkerPop community" as long as those releases
>(bug fixes/optimizations/features) keep coming.

The community is not defined purely as those who actively participate in
what you might call development activities.  It is also the people who ask
questions on your user list, StackOverflow etc, the people who build other
projects on top of your project and create an ecosystem, evangelists who
talk about Tinkerpop or the cool stuff they've done with it at meet-ups,
conferences etc.  Many of these people will never write a drop of code for
Tinkerpop itself but it doesn't stop them being part of your community.
Whether they care about the wider community is also irrelevant, if they
participate in the ecosystem they are part of your community which the
Tinkerpop PMC exists to promote and serve.

IMO If you are defining community as only developers then you've kinda
missed the point of community

>---------------------------------------
>
>
>> 
>>> If I'm not delivering software in a timely manner,
>> 
>> *you* (as in Marko Rodriguez) are not delivering software. Your entire
>> development community does. It is a subtle but important distinction
>> that goes to heart of the Apache Governance model: we don't allow
>> BDFLs. Anyone who's part of your community can propose a release
>> at any time.
>
>No, I deliver software. Likewise, other committers on TinkerPop are
>delivering software. Every piece of code written TinkerPop is not an
>exercise in pair programming. Its "I'm going to knock X, Y, Z out… give
>me 24 hours before touching that module on master/." To which people
>typically reply: "Sweet. Good luck and thanks for taking the reigns on
>that one." So, I go about delivering -- and I do it on time, documented,
>and tested. Why, cause I wear the TinkerPop hat and if I'm say I'm
>TinkerPop, guess what --- you are going to witness me Tinker that Pop.
>There is no "Marko, you said would work on that…can you pleeeeease get it
>done? Please… Comon… At least respond to my emails."  And I don't use the
>"I volunteer" excuse as a way of getting out of having to do things I
>implicitly promise to do. If I wear that hat, I do the job the hat
>entails. And guess what, I'm not "busy" either.

Implying that other people are not busy is not helpful and is simply
insulting other volunteers time.  You are fortunate enough to get paid by
your employer to work pretty much full time on Tinkerpop judging by your
activity on the project.  Most people here (including myself) have day
jobs where contributing to Apache projects is only a tiny part of their
paid time (if they get any at all)

If all you are doing is writing code then you aren't building a
sustainable community, believe me I've spent years delivering code only to
result in completely non-viable communities.  There is a reason that the
Apache matra is "community over code".  In projects I participate in most
of the PMC don't actively write code and spend far more time guiding the
community and helping to develop new developers and build a community that
lives beyond their own contributions.

Again FWIW I think Tinkerpop actually gets their approach to development
and community interaction pretty spot on (bar the point I've made on the
dev list about off-list discussions with brain dumps after the fact) e.g.
you actively encourage new people to consider filing bug reports for
smaller issues.  You bring new people into committer and PMC status over
time in a timely fashion and you are growing the developer portion of your
community.  You are also pretty good at some of the outreach activities
(blog posts, conference presentations etc) that help promote the project
and grow the wider community.

>
>---------------------------------------
>
>>> Likewise for Apache Incubation (though perhaps I'm naive in my
>>>assumptions) -- if you
>>> are a mentor, move the artifacts through in a timely manner and don't
>>>wait for the
>>> project leaders to ping "Hey, can we get a VOTE?…please…pretty
>>>please….hello?"
>> 
>> That's a very legitimate point. As Ross mentioned a couple of times if
>>there's
>> one actionable AI from this thread this would be feedback to your
>>mentors.
>> Your mentors are your first line of defense on things like release
>>VOTES.
>> That said, they are not the only line of defense. Any IPMC member can
>> vote on your release. But the trick is -- you've got to incentivize
>> them somehow.
>> And no -- $20 won't cut it and is morally wrong. What will cut it is
>>paying
>> it forward perhaps along the lines that Marvin suggested.
>
>Through my emails here, TinkerPop got the VOTE so my
>incentivizing-technique worked --- troll the list and get people fired
>up. I suspect a few people giggled and thought: "Ha. That guy is funny if
>anything. -- +1 binding." To the quiet gigglers out there, curtsy bow.
>And unfortunately, if our next release doesn't get VOTEs in a timely
>manner, another dose of antics will follow suit. I'll just have to up the
>ante from public VOTE shaming to something even more ludicrous. Gotz to
>entice, right? Marketing.

Apache is not a software company its a volunteer organisation.  We don't
work to deadlines nor promise release schedules, support contracts etc and
if your community and your own developers don't understand that then you
are setting the wrong expectations within your project

Also as others have noted if I am going to vote on a release vote then I
am going to do the appropriate due diligence, typically voting on a
release for a project I am familiar with will take about half a day of my
time to do a proper job.  For a project where I don't have that
familiarity it will take at least that if not substantially more.  And
FWIW I do use tools that automate as much of it as I can but because I am
serious about legal and IP issues I am going to do a proper job (which
means manual inspections as well) and not just rubber stamp a vote thread
because it wasn't happening fast enough.

>---------------------------------------
>
>> Let me give you an analogy. You've immigrated to a foreign country and
>> you find it difficult to befriend people. Your hosts are busy with
>>other things
>> and are not facilitating your relationships as quickly as you would
>>like them
>> to do that. At that point 'buying' friends is not really an option, is
>> it? Winning
>> friends is. Now, you may say -- what if I'm a total misanthrope who
>>can't stand
>> other human beings? Well, in that case something like ASF wouldn't work
>> for you. Unlike a foreign country, where you can try to rely on
>>government
>> and other services and attempt never to find out your neighbor's names,
>>ASF
>> is not setup like that. We're a community of volunteers and the only
>>currency
>> we accept is other volunteer's contributions of value.
>
>This is what I don't understand about how people here talk about Apache.
>I didn't sign up to be a social club and have friends. I signed up to
>have my software legally protected. In exchange, I will deliver code that
>people need in order to increase the brand name of Apache and move it
>forward for the next generation of developers. That is the extent of the
>social contract.

Well I think as others have noted that is a very isolationist view of the
world.  Apache only exists in its current form because of the past desire
to cooperate and foster communities shared by many of the early
contributors.  If every project here only wanted to do its own thing and
not pay it back then the foundation as it stands would not exist and many
projects including your own would never have had the opportunity to come
here.

We can't force you to be part of the "social club" as you term it but
personally I feel you are missing a lot of the benefits of the ASF if you
don't get involved at least minimally outside of your project silo

>
>Honestly --- once TinkerPop leaves Incubation, the first thing I do is
>unsubscribe from is this list. I don't care about software for software's
>sake. I'm not saying its bad to care, its good that mentors exist, its
>just not my thing. Call me evil, but I also don't care about other
>people's work. I have my work: the code I write and the ideas I publish
>on. Thats all I got and that all I want. In image, if you wear the Apache
>member/mentor hat, … you too busy? I understand, you volunteer. Yes, I
>know -- you have a day job too. Yes…. yes… I completely sympathize… we
>have all heard the cliches.

Again we can't make your participate in the larger foundation nor can we
make you stay on this list, it is nice when people who've been through
incubation stick around and help out future podlings.  That's how pretty
much everyone replying to this thread including myself ended up here.  If
it isn't for you it isn't for you

>---------------------------------------
>
>
>>>> Your answers will likely say a lot about the dynamics of getting
>>>>people to
>>>> help each other. It is hard to do and a human touch goes further than
>>>> setting hurdles.
>>> 
>>> This is where I lose you guys. Why are humans involved in a process
>>>that should be automated.
>>> 
>>>        1. MD5, SHA1, PGP can be automatically checked.
>>>        2. Unzip and see if the data is corrupted can be done
>>>automatically.
>>>        3. LICENSE verification is difficult, but I suspect with some
>>>markup language for LICENSE and pom.xml analysis, this can be done
>>>automatically.
>>>        4. mvn clean install (BUILD SUCCESS can be verified
>>>automatically).
>>>        5. ...
>> 
>> Because if I had 5c for every time a novel way to screw up IP hygiene
>>comes
>> up in young communities I'd be a millionaire. In fact, if you ever
>>worked for
>> a commercial company that produces software based on open source
>>projects
>> you must've done something like a Black Duck scan. I don't have to tell
>> you what kind of things get uncovered. Long story short: "a
>>dude-in-the-loop"
>> stays ;-)

+1000 to what Roman says

Even when we do automate things people still make errors (e.g. copying and
pasting GPL licensed code) and people still need to be in the loop to some
degree however much you automate the process

At my employer we have to go through a substantially more complex approval
process that can take 2-3 months in order to get the legal approval just
to release products that happen to depend on open source code (let alone
open source our own code). Compared to that experience I'll happily take
the Apache release vote procedure that might take a week or two to get a
release approved any day

>> 
>> Now, here's how you can make that dude's life so easy that not voting on
>> your release would not make any sense -- automate EVERYTHING that
>> can be automated and include the results in your VOTE thread. Better
>>yet:
>> give me a Docker container where $ docker run will repro everything
>>you've
>> automated by on my own workstation.
>> 
>> Then you can turn this conversation around and ask: what ELSE are your
>> mentors spending their time on. And those things better be various
>>human-level
>> heuristics.
>
>I did my part for TinkerPop today. Again, I don't care about
>social/software infrastructure -- *yawn*. I'm tired from battle and must
>rest up for the next release -- sharpen my weapons and strengthen my
>armor. Freeeeeeeeeedom from Incubation!

If this thread genuinely reflects your attitude to the ASF then I expect
you may find yourself in for a somewhat contentious graduation vote.  FWIW
I've already expressed what I felt were your major barriers to graduation
on your dev list and now I have additional concerns.  Ironically enough
these concerns had nothing to do with your legal and IP clearances which
is what the vote process and this thread was originally about.

Regards,

Rob

>---------------------------------------
>
>Thanks everyone -- its been a zoot suit,
>Marko.
>
>http://markorodriguez.com
>
>
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>> 
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