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From Daniel Gruno <humbed...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [DISCUSSION] Graduate Ignite from the Apache Incubator
Date Tue, 21 Jul 2015 21:29:13 GMT
While Roy is indeed a smart man, there is no BDFL in the ASF.
Quoting Roy out of context is not a Hail Mary you can just throw out 
there when someone disagrees with you.

Several people, including several IPMC members have expressed concerns.
Address them properly instead of insisting on your way or the high way.

The question of diversity in this case is not "are we enough 
men/women/whatever", the question here is "is there a single corporate 
entity with a deciding vote in the project?".

What I am concerned with here is the responses to this. Instead of 
saying "We don't believe that to be the case", the PPMC is saying 
"there's no rule against that!" as if there _is_ an issue but it's being 
swept under the rug.

With regards,
Daniel.

On 2015-07-21 23:19, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> Please re-read the quote from Roy:
>
> "There is no diversity requirement at the ASF.  There is a behavior
> requirement for graduation and a behavior requirement for TLPs.
> We must not confuse the two."
>
> and later
>
> "I'd urge folks to fix the docs, but I know where that leads ...
> and I have no cycles to spare."
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:55 PM, jan i <jani@apache.org> wrote:
>> On 21 July 2015 at 22:48, Daniel Gruno <humbedooh@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/21/2015 10:39 PM, Ted Dunning wrote:
>>>> Present time diversity or lack of same is not a bar to graduation.
>>> So we should just scrap the bit in the Incubator policy that says "A
>>> major criterion for graduation is to have developed an open and diverse
>>> meritocratic community."?
>>>
>>> I think not.
>>>
>> If diversity does not matter, then please explain these references:
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
>>
>> Diversity of committership is important for two main reasons:
>>
>>     -
>>
>>     it gives long term stability to the project development: in fact, with
>>     all the developers affiliated to the same entity, the chance of seeing all
>>     of them moving away from the project at the same time is much greater than
>>     with a community of individuals affiliated to unrelated entities.
>>     -
>>
>>     it gives a greater variety of technical visions: something that
>>     guarantees a better adherence to environment and user's needs, thus a
>>     higher change of finding real-life use of the software.
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/reporting
>>
>>     -
>>
>>     PMC and committer diversity
>>
>>     A healthy project should survive the departure of any single contributor
>>     or employer of contributors. Healthy projects also serve needs of many
>>     parties. Thus the ASF prefers that projects have diverse PMCs and
>>     committerships. *IF* the PMC has any concerns or perceives a problem
>>     with the diversity, then the report should include information on the
>>     number of unique organizations currently represented in its PMC and
>>     committership.
>>
>> If diversity did not matter for TLPs, the above explanation and guidelines
>> are false
>>
>>
>> I think not.
>>
>>
>> rgds
>>
>> jan I.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> What is important is that the committers and PMC of the new project
>>>> understand how to make releases and are building community.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Konstantin, for the enlighting quote. And the link leading to
>>>>> nowhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we take away the names of the mentors from the list (Branko, Roman
>>> and
>>>>> yours) as well as those in other projects (Evans) from the list of
>>> intended
>>>>> project members, the situation even grows worse. Then the number grows
>>> to
>>>>> 77%. That doesn't look promising regarding independence, and neither
>>>>> regarding healthiness.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>
>>>>> *ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>*
>>>>> Services & Solutions for Cloud-
>>>>> Based Manufacturing, Professional
>>>>> Services and Retail & Trade
>>>>> http://www.orrtiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 8:53 PM, Konstantin Boudnik <cos@apache.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The so-called diversity requirement has been discussed on this list
>>> for a
>>>>>> number of times. Most recent is the graduation of Flume project (back
>>> in
>>>>>> 2012). Here's a quote from that thread (kudos to Roy; for those who
>>> want
>>>>>> to look it up in the archives MessageId is
>>>>>> 73DB2E64-87D5-4DD5-91FB-403464895AC5@gbiv.com):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [quote]
>>>>>> There is no diversity requirement at the ASF.  There is a behavior
>>>>>> requirement for graduation and a behavior requirement for TLPs.
>>>>>> We must not confuse the two. If the Incubator says that there is
a
>>>>>> diversity requirement for graduation, ignore it (or at least figure
>>>>>> out what the docs were supposed to say and then do that).
>>>>>> I'd urge folks to fix the docs, but I know where that leads ...
>>>>>> and I have no cycles to spare.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A diversity requirement would mean that a person's employment
>>>>>> status impacts their ability to participate here.  IOW, it would
>>>>>> create a perverse incentive for them not to be employed.
>>>>>> [/quote]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>    Cos
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 05:55PM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>>>>>>> It seems that 63% of the podling's PMC is affiliated to 1 organisation
>>>>>>> (Gridgrain).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have sufficient grounds been covered to ensure diversity and
>>>>> independece?
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:13 PM, Dmitriy Setrakyan <
>>>>>> dsetrakyan@apache.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:08 AM, amareshwarisr . <
>>>>>> amareshwari@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems the DESCRIPTION_AND_SCOPE of the project is set
to " the
>>>>>> automated
>>>>>>>>> and managed flow of information between systems."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I dont see any such on project website -
>>>>>>>>> http://ignite.incubator.apache.org/
>>>>>>>>> Looks like a copy from NIFI's graduation discussion -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/201506.mbox/%3CCALJK9a4PD%2B3qGGQbbHHyLfY8Ut9BP9VyEDwtnZDSWjpMKiwk9w%40mail.gmail.com%3E
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> You might want to correct it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup, copy-n-paste never works :) Corrected below.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Correct me if description is fine and  I'm wrong in understanding
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> description
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> Amareshwari
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 5:06 AM, Dmitriy Setrakyan <
>>>>>>>> dsetrakyan@apache.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Apache Incubator,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the suggestion of our mentors the Ignite community
established
>>>>>>>>> consensus
>>>>>>>>>> and held a successful vote with 14 +1 votes in favor
of proposing
>>>>>>>>>> graduation to TLP.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vote thread:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>> http://apache-ignite-developers.2346864.n4.nabble.com/VOTE-Graduate-Apache-Ignite-from-Incubation-td1539.html
>>>>>>>>>> Summary of the vote results:
>>>>>>>>>> +1 (non-binding) = 14
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>     1. Yakov Zhdanov (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     2. Gianfranco Murador (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     3. Ira Vasilinets (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     4. Nikolai Tichinov (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     5. Semyon Boikov (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     6. Sergi Vladykin (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     7. Alexey Goncharuk (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     8. Ognen Duzlevski (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     9. Valentin Kulichenko (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     10. Nikita Ivanov (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     11. Dmitriy Setrakyan (PMC)
>>>>>>>>>>     12. Andrey Novikov (Committer)
>>>>>>>>>>     13. Alexey Kuznetsov (Committer)
>>>>>>>>>>     14. Milap Wadwa
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We’d like to initiate this discussion/proposal
to establish a
>>>>>> consensus
>>>>>>>>>> within the incubator and if appropriate will initiate
a vote.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Below is our proposed resolution:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you
>>>>>>>>>> Dmitriy Setrakyan(on behalf of the Apache Ignite
PPMC)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SUBJECT: Establish the Apache Ignite TLP
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to
be in the best
>>>>>>>>>>      interests of the Foundation and consistent with
the
>>>>>>>>>>      Foundation's purpose to establish a Project
Management
>>>>>>>>>>      Committee charged with the creation and maintenance
of
>>>>>>>>>>      open-source software, for distribution at no
charge to
>>>>>>>>>>      the public, related to the automated and managed
flow of
>>>>>>>>>>      information between systems.
>>>>>>>> Should be:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>> "related to delivering an In-Memory Data Fabric - a high-performance,
>>>>>>>> integrated and distributed in-memory platform for computing
and
>>>>>> transacting
>>>>>>>> on large-scale data sets in real-time"
>>>>>>>>   --------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project
Management
>>>>>>>>>>      Committee (PMC), to be known as the "Apache
Ignite Project",
>>>>>>>>>>      be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws
of the
>>>>>>>>>>      Foundation; and be it further
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that the Apache Ignite Project be
and hereby is
>>>>>>>>>>      responsible for the creation and maintenance
of software
>>>>>>>>>>      related to the automated and managed flow of
information
>>>>>>>>>>      between systems and be it further
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that the office of "Vice President,
Apache Ignite"
>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>      and hereby is created, the person holding such
office to
>>>>>>>>>>      serve at the direction of the Board of Directors
as the chair
>>>>>>>>>>      of the Apache Ignite Project, and to have primary
>>>>>> responsibility
>>>>>>>>>>      for management of the projects within the scope
of
>>>>>>>>>>      responsibility of the Apache Ignite Project;
and be it
>>>>> further
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately
below be and
>>>>>>>>>>      hereby are appointed to serve as the initial
members of the
>>>>>>>>>>      Apache Ignite Project:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      Semyon Boikov (sboikov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Konstantin Boudnik (cos@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Branko Čibej (brane@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Ognen Duzlevski (maketo@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Sergey Evdokimov (sevdokimov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Alexey Goncharuk (agoncharuk@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Nikita Ivanov (nivanov30@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Sergey Khisamov (skh@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Valentin Kulichenko (vkulichenko@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Alexey Kuznetsov (akuznetsov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Gianfranco Murador (murador@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Andrey Novikov (anovikov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Vladimir Ozerov (vozerov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Dmitriy Setrakyan (dsetrakyan@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Roman Shaposhnik (rvs@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Ilya Sterin (isterin@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Nikolai Tikhonov (ntikhonov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Irina Vasilinets (ivasilinets@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Anton Vinogradov (av@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Sergey Vladykin (svladykin@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Evans Ye (evansye@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>      Yakov Zhdanov (yzhdanov@apache.org)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that
>>>>>>>>>>      Dmitriy Setrakyan be appointed to the office
of Vice
>>>>> President,
>>>>>>>>>>      Apache Ignite, to serve in accordance with and
subject to the
>>>>>>>>>>      direction of the Board of Directors and the
Bylaws of the
>>>>>>>>>>      Foundation until death, resignation, retirement,
removal or
>>>>>>>>>>      disqualification, or until a successor is appointed;
>>>>>>>>>>      and be it further
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Ignite PMC
be and hereby is
>>>>>>>>>>      tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws
intended to
>>>>>>>>>>      encourage open development and increased participation
in the
>>>>>>>>>>      Apache Ignite Project; and be it further
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that the Apache Ignite Project be
and hereby
>>>>>>>>>>      is tasked with the migration and rationalization
of the
>>>>> Apache
>>>>>>>>>>      Incubator Ignite podling; and be it further
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      RESOLVED, that all responsibilities pertaining
to the Apache
>>>>>>>>>>      Incubator Ignite podling encumbered upon the
Apache Incubator
>>>>>>>>>>      Project are hereafter discharged.
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
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