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From Benson Margulies <bimargul...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Podlings should be in charge of their mentors (was: Incubator report sign-off)
Date Mon, 05 Jan 2015 23:41:05 GMT
Back in 2013, I suggested asking the Champion to accept a very clear
level of reporting responsibility: to write a sentence or two _every
month_ or find someone else to do it. That's one person whom I wanted
to ask to sign up, for the duration of an incubation, to pay enough
attention to be able to report a basic heartbeat.

?


On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 5, 2015, at 08:18 PM, jan i wrote:
>> On 5 January 2015 at 20:06, Alan D. Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 10:26 AM, jan i <jani@apache.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Monday, January 5, 2015, Alan D. Cabrera <list@toolazydogs.com
>> > > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','list@toolazydogs.com');>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> On Jan 5, 2015, at 9:21 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <roman@shaposhnik.org>
>> > wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> The tracking part is easy, though. What's difficult is the part
>> > >>> that would require us to do something with poddlings put
>> > >>> on hold. Unless we come up with clear exit criteria for
>> > >>> this new state -- I don't think we're solving any real problems
>> > >>> here.
>> > >>
>> > >> There’s no silver bullet here, if a podling cannot whip up a mentor
it’s
>> > >> because:
>> > >> the podling is not popular and should probably be retired anyway, being
>> > >> put on hold will provide impetus for the podling to seek out a new
venue
>> > >> there are not enough mentors
>> > >> There is no way to magically solve the latter.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > You mean popular within the pool of mentors (IPMC), the project can still
>> > > be popular on several other scales.
>> >
>> > I’m not speaking of popularity of mentors; I regret that choice of words.
>> > I am stating that active and healthy podlings seem to have no trouble
>> > attracting active mentors.
>> >
>> > The converse seems to be true.  Unhealthy podlings seem to attract mentors
>> > who have signed up out of pity and subsequently go MIA.
>> >
>> I agree with the last part, I still have to see mentors volunteer for
>> small
>> active and healthy projects which might not be main road. Of course it
>> depends on how active and healthy is defined, but as an example my little
>> project Corinthia barely managed to get 2 mentors, while in the same time
>> span we got 3 committers.
>>
>> >
>> > Before anyone replies, I understand this is not a hard and fast rule but
>> > an imperfect qualitative observation on my part.
>> >
>> > Anyway, active and responsible mentors will eventually get to all podlings.
>> >
>> > > I might lack experience, but why do more active mentors guarantee that
>> > the
>> > > podling will be a better TLP ?
>> >
>> > I’m not sure who’s making that assertion.
>> >
>> Well its because I cannot see why a podling need more than 1 active
>> mentor
>> at all times....having multiple is fine, to cover each other, but it
>> should
>> not take more than 1 mentor to learn a podling, what it needs to
>> understand. The suggestion implicit says 2 mentors is the minimum needed
>> for at podling to become a successful TLP.
>>
>>
>> >
>> > > We try to solve the problem of mentors not being active but adding more
>> > > volume. I don't believe that is the right cure.
>> >
>> > We’re not adding volume.  The volume is already there.  We’re just making
>> > the state of affairs more explicit and transparent and adding culpability
>> > for MIA mentors.
>> >
>> Do we have a rule today that a podling needs at least 2 active mentors
>> (if
>> we have that, then we would not have a problem with sign offs, or a lot
>> of
>> dead podlings), at least I have not seen it....that is what I mean by
>> adding volume.
>>
>> If just 1 mentor is active and sign off the reports, then I do not see
>> the
>> problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > > I do agree with bernard that it is the podling that should ask for
>> > > help....but the IPMC should solve it.,
>> >
>> > Yes, it should help solve problems but if there are no mentors available
>> > there are no mentors available.
>> >
>> Then the IPMC should not have accepted the podling in the first place!
>>
>> It is simply not fair to make the life of a podling, depending on whether
>> or not we have mentors available (REMARK after accepting the proposal) !
>> If
>> the podling have a healthy community and are active, we cannot and should
>> not close it down, just because we have a mentor problem.
>>
>> To me telling a podling it cannot grow its community nor make releases,
>> is
>> the same as closing it down.
>
> Jan,
>
> From an idealistic perspective, you are completely right. Apache should,
> once a project has been accepted, provide the support needed.
>
> The reality is that, given the ASF's volunteer nature, that simply won't
> always work.
>
> I'd much rather we be clear with projects right up front, saying
> something like:
>
> "To join the Incubator, you need one or more mentors. To get to
> graduation, you will need the support of those mentors. If mentors
> become unavailable, you will need to seek replacements. Unless you have
> already learned the ways of the ASF and are ready to graduate, you will
> need to keep engaged with your mentors. If possible, engage in the wider
> ASF, and develop connections with others who might be in a position to
> assist with mentorship should one or all of your current mentors become
> unable to fulfill the role. "
>
> This is, actually, what happens, and I'd much rather we just said it
> like that :-)
>
> Upayavira
>
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