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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Clear expectations
Date Tue, 13 Jan 2015 21:36:24 GMT
Marvin,

Can you please expand on "I think the answer starts with the very skepticism of top-down governance
which has in large part kept us from having clear rules up till now."

I'm not clear on what the "skepticism" is that you refer to as these threads have indicated
that there are at least two very different views on whether there is, or is not, top down
governance in the ASF.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Humphrey [mailto:marvin@rectangular.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 1:27 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org; Shane Curcuru
Subject: Re: Clear expectations

On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does it help anything to look at this, again, as failure modes?

How about this failure mode?

A podling receives thorough instruction on some policy during incubation.
After graduation, that policy gets violated, but most PMC members don't speak up because the
rules are messy and poorly documented and they don't have enough confidence in their understanding
to pursue the matter.

Is that failure mode even related to the Incubator?  Though you could argue that the passive
PMC members did not learn to escalate, the main lesson I take from it is that unclear requirments
are a problem for TLPs and the larger organization.

The Incubator is teaching from an inadequate spec.  That's a problem for us in that it wastes
the time of Mentors and podlings.  But the spec's inadequacy does not originate with the Incubator.
 The Incubator doesn't own that problem.

The question I'd ask is, How can Apache create an awesome spec that's easy to teach, easy
to learn, and easy to follow?

I think the answer starts with the very skepticism of top-down governance which has in large
part kept us from having clear rules up till now.  That skepticism must be applied aggressively
at every step of the way to ensure that we require no more than the bare minimum.

Marvin Humphrey

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