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From "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ross.Gard...@microsoft.com>
Subject RE: Incubator report sign-off
Date Wed, 31 Dec 2014 04:07:51 GMT
:-)

Yes, it is shocking that the Ripple project had a number of signed off reports while inappropriate
releases were being made. This problem only came to light because the community was considering
retirement and some of my day job colleagues wanted me to look at it. In other words, I have
a vested interest in seeing if things can be fixed, so I stepped up to see if they can.

This is at the root of my proposal to *expect* mentors to have a vested interest in the success
of a project.

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: John D. Ament [mailto:johndament@apache.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 8:05 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubator report sign-off

Ross,

I think we're actually on the same page.  My point with ripple was not so much that it wasn't
bringing it to anyone's attention (in fact the opposite, it's plastered all over the report)
but more that a simple checkbox doesn't mean everything's great.

John

On Tue Dec 30 2014 at 10:59:33 PM Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH) < Ross.Gardler@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> John,
>
> Actually John I disagree with one of your examples (Ripple). This is 
> actually a case where things have gone as they would expect.
>
> The mail you link to is from me. I had previously made the IPMC aware 
> of the issue prior to that email on the mailing list. I was asked if I 
> was undertaking to fix it (I replied yes and requested the podling 
> added me as a mentor in order to do so). The podling report indicated 
> that getting a release out was a focus "No release made as yet, this 
> will be the first item to recieve attention."
>
> The report does not need more detail than that since the IPMC had 
> already been made aware that there was a problem, that it had been 
> spotted and that the community and mentors indicated that they were to address it.
>
> Finally, if you review the shepherds notes from that report they 
> acknowledge the concern and the fact that there was activity to address it.
>
> Ripple still has not addressed the issue raised those emails. 
> Therefore it will not graduate until it does. The email you link to 
> makes this perfectly clear.
>
> This is, in my opinion, exactly what should be happening. We provide 
> oversight to ensure project acts as an Apache project. If it does so 
> we graduate it, if it doesn't we retire it.
>
> I do agree with the overall intention of your mail, but it seems I 
> disagree on what adequate oversight is.
>
> Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John D. Ament [mailto:johndament@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2014 7:47 PM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Incubator report sign-off
>
> On Tue Dec 30 2014 at 1:26:31 PM Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:26 AM, John D. Ament 
> > <john.d.ament@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > > Absolutely not just noise. Take the extra 2 seconds to add your 
> > > > sign
> > off.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I disagree.  Checking a check box is much different than adding
> > meaningful
> > > comments, either on mailing lists or on the report itself.
> > >
> > > For example, which gives you better info that I feel confident in
> > Tamaya's
> > > board report.
> > >
> > > My check here: https://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2014
> > >
> > > or my comments in this thread:
> > >
> > > http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-tamaya-
> > dev/201411.mbox/%3CCAOqetn8wkYuDNkTwkpKKOGzu%3Ds_cf4VMT5A9_e8mdpM6mO
> > h-
> > 6Q%
> > 40mail.gmail.com%3E
> > >
> > > All the check does (from my point of view) is give someone a brief
> > summary
> > > that things are looking good.  The check mark doesn't imply any 
> > > due diligence on the mentor's part.  It's very misleading to see 
> > > it that
> way.
> > > Take a look for example at the log4cxx2 podling's report.  It has 
> > > mentor sign off, but the contents are barely present.  The only 
> > > reason it has mentor sign off is because the mentor wrote the 
> > > report, after I (as the
> > > shepherd) reminded the podling.
> > >
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Are you seriously suggesting that the board should be delving into 
> > all the incubator mailing lists to determine whether you are paying 
> > attention to your mentoree groups?
> >
>
> No, not in the slightest.  But someone needs to look at it.  Our 
> current notion of a board report is completely on the honour system.  
> It doesn't safeguard from the chance (which from what I can tell is 
> more often the
> case) of a mentor writing and signing a report saying it's good to go.
>
> You can see some examples of this effect here:
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/logging-log4cxx-
> dev/201412.mbox/%3C1418063938.3890690.200338789.1D0EE7B3%
> 40webmail.messagingengine.com%3E
>
> There are also cases where there are clear issues w/ the podling but 
> aren't getting communicated properly on the report (or maybe just
> oversight?)
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ripple-
> dev/201412.mbox/%3CBY2PR03MB490FFD83B71E97C269A12DF99660%40BY2PR03MB490.
> namprd03.prod.outlook.com%3E
>
> My point is that just because there's a checkbox checked doesn't mean 
> there's issues.  Maybe what would help is to have, during shepherd 
> perhaps, some coaxing in to putting more into the issues for the IPMC/board section.
>
> Maybe it's more of a "don't hesitate to put something in that area" 
> thing that needs to happen.
>
> John
>
>
> >
> > The check-box is the concise way that you indicate that the activity 
> > on the mailing lists is happening.  There is a known defect with 
> > checkboxes in that they can be ticked without mentoring activity 
> > behind them, but that doesn't mean that we should introduce a new 
> > failure mechanism where there is good activity but no tick box.
> >
> > Yes, the tick box is supposed to be an echo.  It is a redundant 
> > summarization.  And it is very helpful because all the tick boxes 
> > are in one place for easier review.
> >
>
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