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From "Mattmann, Chris A (3980)" <chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject Re: [Proposal] Taverna workflow
Date Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:14:26 GMT
These are great answers, and much of them will help to guide
the Incubation process.

Congrats guys and I for one want to welcome you with my Director
hat and my ASF member and ASF guy hats!

Cheers and looking forward to it.

Cheers,
Chris

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
Chief Architect
Instrument Software and Science Data Systems Section (398)
NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
Office: 168-519, Mailstop: 168-527
Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Adjunct Associate Professor, Computer Science Department
University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++






-----Original Message-----
From: Stian Soiland-Reyes <soiland-reyes@cs.manchester.ac.uk>
Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2014 9:03 AM
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Cc: Shoaib Sufi <shoaib.sufi@manchester.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Taverna workflow

>On 23 September 2014 18:54, Marlon Pierce <marpierc@iu.edu> wrote:
>> * Can you say more about why you want to take Taverna to the ASF?
>
>As we say in the proposal, one of our goals of moving to ASF is to
>make it more obvious that we want to run an open development process.
>So far we have effectively been leading Taverna from Manchester and
>kept perhaps a too strong "ownership" - so any kind of request would
>be responded to almost as if from a customer; our language would fall
>into a we vs. them style. This makes the customers happy - of course -
>but it does not encourage them to contribute themselves to the
>project.
>
>As an example of us/them impression - see Taverna's own website:
>
>http://www.taverna.org.uk/about/
>vs
>http://www.taverna.org.uk/collaborate/collaborations/
>
>Under Apache, all of those should be "we". Currently we feel it
>difficult to change this without having a separate foundation. We have
>looked into creating a standalone Taverna Foundation - but found that
>it requires a fair bit of legal administration. Apache is well
>recognized, and has all the legal processes sorted out, and stood out
>as the most viable candidate.
>
>
>While we have tried to keep things open, with mailing lists, source
>code, etc. freely available - our working philosophy has still been
>entrenched in the office environment - strategic decisions about the
>code decided in a coffee room meeting for instance, etc.
>
>Many of the non-Manchester contributors have mainly been adding
>features in the form of plugins. Our software has a highly pluggable
>architecture - so in a way that is also our fault - most of the things
>people wanted to do could be achieved with a plugin. Those
>contributors have not as much been engaged in any maintenance of the
>core code, the engine and the user interface. Obviously it is also
>more of a challenge to understand a whole system than just a plugin
>interface, but still we don't want to keep any artificial or real
>barriers for such engagement.
>
>So as much as our intended move to ASF is to further encourage others
>to get engaged, feel ownership to the project, and to contribute to
>the core; we also want to force ourselves in Manchester truly follow
>an open process.
>
>By having Apache Taverna it is obvious as a standalone project - we
>believe it could be easier for other scientific projects to bring in
>contributions to Taverna as a part of their research proposals,
>without a "need" to include University of Manchester as a project
>partner or feeling that they are "giving Manchester something for
>free".
>
>
>> * What is your strategy for increasing the diversity of your committer
>>base?
>
>We are organizing a developer conference next month in Manchester,
>which has already generated a lot of interest and registrations. In
>doing so, we have been inviting personally existing plugin developers
>and integrators.
>
>http://dev.mygrid.org.uk/wiki/display/developer/Taverna+Open+Development+W
>orkshop
>
>We in Manchester will want to keep those personal relations active,
>and will work to encourage engagement from old and new developers -
>particularly like when we found some integration "in the wild" where
>the developers have not signed up to our mailing lists. A move to the
>Incubator is in a way a good "excuse" for such recruitment - as it
>means they should be feeling they are engaging with and becoming part
>of the software project as an entity, rather than (as previously) just
>communicating with a particular research group in Manchester.
>
>
>> * Do you have any third party dependencies in the Taverna core that have
>> incompatible licenses (like GPL)?
>
>Unfortunately we do have a few of those, yes - the fact that we have
>to move away from those was one of the things that we discussed a lot
>in the Taverna community.
>
>
>Taverna 2 is licensed as LGPL 2.1, which meant we could use several
>LGPL libraries like Hibernate and RShell. Hibernate can be replaced by
>other JPA providers (with some code update to remove Hibernate
>specific calls), while the RShell support would have to be moved out
>to an separately installable plugin.
>
>
>The Astronomy edition of Taverna includes a plugin called
>AstroTaverna, which is GPL3 due to its inclusion of the Topcat and
>STILTS dependencies.
>
>The AstroTaverna community was therefore a bit sceptical about moving
>to Apache - but we concluded that as they would keep maintaining
>AstroTaverna as standalone plugins and instead of having multiple
>downloads for different editions, with Taverna 3 move to a "Start
>screen" that installs plugins from possibly third-party sites (Eclipse
>style).
>
>http://smtp.iaa.es/pipermail/astrotaverna-users/20140529/thread.html
>
>
>Here luckily our plugin system (OSGi) will help us out - so those bits
>that truly depend on GPL or LGPL would have to be maintained outside
>Apache.  What perhaps we need to prepare a bit clearer is exactly
>which plugins will be in the Apache transfer, and which would stay
>outside.
>
>
>The Taverna Workbench installers currently include platform-specific
>binaries of OpenJDK 7, which is licensed under GPL 2 with classpath
>exception. It is likely that under Apache we could not distribute
>OpenJDK - but perhaps it would instead be allowed to distribute the
>normal JDK binaries? (For Taverna 2 we did not distribute the normal
>JDK as it can be seen as incompatible with GPL, which LGPL can be
>upgraded to).  Do you know of any Apache projects that do this, like
>perhaps OpenOffice?
>
>An alternative is for the installer to download JDK on demand - but
>would that require the installer itself (currently Install4j) to be
>replaced?
>
>
>> * Would you like developer-contributed plugins to be covered within a
>>future
>> "Apache Taverna" project?
>
>As we've seen, keeping plugin developers on the "outside" of the
>project has isolated them from the core development. We would
>therefore like to encourage any new plugin developers to eventually
>make their plugin a part of an Apache Taverna project - as we have
>done historically with successful plugins. Apache's use of CLAs is I
>must admit a bit of a hindrance to this as opposed to the Github
>Laissez-faire style - - it has kept myself away from Apache projects
>earlier when my suggested patch was deemed "significant" - yet the
>legal department of the University spent 8 months reviewing that patch
>and Apache's CLA before finally signing.
>
>Yet we consider Taverna to be such a mature project that we want IP
>and licensing to be done correctly - and as you see our earlier
>insistence on keeping CLAs for all Taverna 2 development means that we
>are now in a position to relicense Taverna and change ownership to a
>foundation like Apache.
>
>
>-- 
>Stian Soiland-Reyes, myGrid team
>School of Computer Science
>The University of Manchester
>http://soiland-reyes.com/stian/work/ http://orcid.org/0000-0001-9842-9718
>
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