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From Ted Dunning <ted.dunn...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
Date Mon, 23 Jun 2014 07:50:21 GMT
Let me repeat that my desired outcome here is Tez graduation.

It is just that I want to see Tez graduate as a viable project.




On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Thanks Ted, these are all important points that require responses. I have
> CC'ed the dev@tez.i.a.o
> list, where I hope the Tez community can respond to your points below in
> detail.
>
> Guys, please see Ted's comments below and please try to address them in
> light of the
>
> recent [DISCUSS] Graduation thread I raised. It's fine if the answer to
> some of the
> points is (1) we plan on addressing them by X date, with Y action; (2) we
> don't think
> this is a valid point *because* ..*explanation*; (3) you didn't consider
> this factoid
> _here_, etc.
>
> I'm hoping the other mentors on the project can step up and have some
> insight
> into the below. I look forward to the discussion.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Monday, June 23, 2014 12:12 AM
> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Tez graduation [Was: Request for mentor assessment]
>
> >On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (3980) <
> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> >Regardless of whether it is an explicit requirement to have some
> >>specific
> >> >level of diversity, there is a requirement that the group demonstrate
> >> >community building.
> >>
> >> I'm also sympathetic to this: you can see my thread here where
> >>originally
> >> I didn't
> >> think much had been going on until I explicitly checked the lists and
> >>went
> >> through
> >> the archives and saw ~7 IIRC PPMC members/committers added since
> >>entering
> >> [1]. That's
> >> community building regardless of what affiliation those new members came
> >> from.
> >>
> >> The other metrics and statistics (health of the mailing lists/open
> >> discussions have
> >> been increasing; releases have been made, etc.) are all there and
> >>outlined
> >> in [1].
> >
> >
> >As I read the private list, there has been absolutely no effort at adding
> >committers until last month when the topic of graduation has come up.
> >There
> >is no substantive discussion on the list of the potential committers, but
> >simply rather perfunctory +1 votes.
> >
> >In reading the thread about whether there should be/is a diversity
> >requirement, I come to a bit of a different conclusion as well.  What I
> >see
> >in the discussion is that the participants seem to agree that
> >
> >- there should not be a simple count-based diversity measure because this
> >would dissuade valuable commercial contributions
> >
> >- the chance/likelihood of project failure due to a dominant commercial
> >contributor pulling out should not be considered since project dormancy or
> >retirement isn't a bad thing.  Better to try and fail than never try.
> >
> >- there is clear recognition of the risk of commercial companies inventing
> >a project not so much because of a desire to build community but rather as
> >a marketing maneuver.
> >
> >- there is no mention of the problems that have arisen in the Hadoop
> >groups
> >relative to use of groups and Apache trademarks for marketing purposes.
> >
> >I don't want to impute motives to actions since I cannot know what others
> >hold in their hearts, but I don't see evidence of efforts to really build
> >the community.  There was one meat-space meetup a year ago.  There have
> >been a few presentations of what Tez is.
> >
> >I do see a fair number of public statements of the form "Tez is
> >Hortonworks
> >answer to Impala" or "The future of Hadoop runs on Tez", most of which
> >seem
> >to come out of Hortonworks' marketing department.
> >
> >In looking at the dev list back to September of last year, I see a large
> >number of procedural messages (votes, results, release mechanics), a few
> >user questions (NPE in such and so, how do I install) and very few design
> >discussions.  There was one thread last November about combiners, another
> >in January about map parallelism, and one more in March about reducer
> >parallelism.  To me this looks a lot like a project where all design
> >discussions are occurring off-list.
> >
> >What I would like to see would include
> >
> >- a strong effort on the part of Tez to bring all design and
> >implementation
> >discussions to the list,
> >
> >- continuous community engagement efforts such as weekly hangouts in
> >different timezones to help new contributors understand what is happening
> >technically in the project in an interactive setting
> >
> >- lots of public talks focussed on how outsiders can contribute and how
> >the
> >design works
> >
> >- cross posting on related projects offering cross pollination
> >opportunities.  Such related groups might be Drill, Optiq, Tajo and Spark.
> > These postings would say things like "how could you guys help us with
> >Tez"
> >or "Tez has this and such, would that be helpful to you guys".
> >
> >- inviting contributors from related projects to give technical
> >presentations in the context of Tez
> >
> >Now, my searches have been fairly cursory and could have missed important
> >activities, but I have a bit of a hard time believing that I have missed
> >major efforts along these lines.
> >
> >Based on this evidence, it really does look to me like Tez is a purely
> >commercial development masquerading as an Apache community.
> >
> >I agree that superficial diversity metrics are counter-productive, but I
> >also assert that there isn't any obvious evidence of serious community
> >building here and there is significant evidence that building community
> >isn't even the point of the project.  That *is* a substantive issue
> >relative to graduation.
>
>
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