incubator-general mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Upayavira ...@odoko.co.uk>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Incubator exit criteria
Date Tue, 24 Jun 2014 13:57:37 GMT


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014, at 12:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier wrote:
> On 24 Jun 2014, at 7:24, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Christian Grobmeier
> > <grobmeier@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I think its not enough to just look at release / committer additions.
> >>
> >> In the case of Wave, there was a committer addition in the past year. 
> >> Still
> >> no commits, nor a release. Looking closer you would find that 
> >> committer was
> >> added because there was some excitement around at that time, with a 
> >> lot of
> >> plans.
> >> But then people were facing simply too much work for a small team, 
> >> and
> >> the motivation then stopped. A deadline wouldn't not help to get out 
> >> a
> >> release.
> >>
> >> That being said, I would like to re-suggest my initial thought with 
> >> one
> >> modification:
> >>
> >> - no new committer for a year
> >> - AND no release for a year
> >> - AND less than 20 emails in a month on dev@
> >> - AND less than 10 commits/jira modifications in a month
> >> - AND no way to change this in the next three months (in example: 
> >> hackathon
> >> on horizon)
> >
> > Here's my personal struggle with two of the items on this list:
> > - AND less than 20 emails in a month on dev@
> > - AND less than 10 commits/jira modifications in a month
> > I can't fathom how a community that is that active can't put
> > itself to a task of making a release.
> 
> Let's assume the Wave project would have more activity. Maybe lets say
> they are operating with around 20 commits a month. It would be still
> difficult to release the code base within one year, because its really 
> complex and
> needs a full refactoring. If we do not weight activity in general in, we 
> reduce
> the exit criteria to: how fast can you do a release?
> 
> And: if you don't manage to make a release in the first year - no matter 
> how your
> product looks like - you might be thrown out.
> 
> 
> > At the ends of the day, the release of an incubating project
> > is NOT a glorious exercise in putting the final coat of paint
> > on a flawless product. It is rather a very mundane way sharing
> > technology with its users community. And after all, growing the
> > user community is as important as growing the contributing
> > community. It is only fair that IPMC gently reminds PPMC of that.
> 
> I agree, but sometimes it's simply not possible to release.
> Actually, Wave *could* have released something, but nobody wants
> it to look like that.
> 
> Let's assume they would release it now, which would be possible in 
> theory.
> Let's say they would get 3 +1 from the PMC, which will be hard already.
> Then you have a released project, but the community is almost inactive.
> 
> > Heck, our TLPs practice it (where expectations are arguably
> > higher) let alone Incubating projects. Take Hadoop as an
> > example -- in order to make Hadoop 2.x successful the
> > community decided to put an early alpha releases of
> > Hadoop 2.0.x out to share the technology with its users.
> > It was exactly the right decisions and ultimately it resulted
> > in a much smoother 2.x.y series.
> 
> As to my knowledge, some Hadoop-devs get financial support from 
> companies.
> Projects like Ripple, Wave or Log4cxx do not have that financial 
> support.
> In most cases, people work on these codebases in their prime time.
> For that reason I don't want to compare company-backed projects with
> prime-time projects.
> 
> > In short -- you don't have to make your releases GA. Alpha
> > releases are just fine. Still you have to demonstrate that
> > you are capable of sharing your work with the user
> > community and doing an alpha/beta/gamma/YNH release
> > is the only way to do it.
> 
> I know what you mean, but I doubt this alone is a factor we should 
> weight for an exit.
> 
> People might struggle with a release but be healthy otherwise.
> People might get a release done, but have no community otherwise.
> 
> That said, reminding people of the "release often and early" thing is 
> good to do,
> but also have in mind that incubator releases are very difficult to 
> make.

Unlike Christian (another Wave mentor :-) ), I am generally in support
of this proposal. If a project cannot get a release out, then it
suggests insufficient weight behind it. Releasing software is what the
ASF is about. It is acceptable that a mature ASF project, one that is
code-complete, doesn't release regularly, but an incubator project would
not fall into that camp, therefore being able to say "we can muster the
resources to make a 'legally valid release' within a year seems
eminently reasonable to me.

Upayavira

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org


Mime
View raw message