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From ant elder <ant.el...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Release Verification Checklist
Date Tue, 10 Dec 2013 09:05:47 GMT
On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:45 AM, Marvin Humphrey <marvin@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 2:34 AM, ant elder <ant.elder@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I know you're passionate about this Marvin but as it stands I'll be
>> voting against this proposal.
>
> I plan to propose this as an experiment

Well ok, earlier you said you'd planed it as a change to the Incubator
policy page but if its just an experiment then fine by me, i've
already said in the experiment discussions that i'd support anyone
doing some experiments.

>
>> 1) This proposal doesn't help podlings with the first release
>
> It helps by clarifying what we expect from podlings.  We're effectively
> replacing that absurd monstrosity, the Incubator's Release Management Guide...
>
>     http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html
>
> ... with a one page checklist:
>
>     http://incubator.apache.org/guides/release_manifest.txt
>
> The first release will be easier because podlings will spend less time
> thrashing through docs trying to discover what is required.  Compliance isn't
> that much work in the grand scheme of things -- the big problem has been that
> the Incubator couldn't tell you the spec.
>
>> 3) The proposal adds new artificial process around doing a release
>> when we should be teaching podlings how TLPs do things
>
> I think podlings which have their act together ought to have the option of
> filling in a checklist rather than being forced to wait weeks hoping some
> random IPMC member wanders by.
>
>> Incubator releases are not official ASF releases so there is not and should
>> not be the same expectations around them.
>
> A lot of people seem to think this, but it's not true.  Incubator releases are
> official ASF releases.
>
>> If we could find a way to have Incubator PMC members accept a lower
>> bar for doing podling releases it would make a massive improvement to
>> everyones experience of the Incubator.
>
> We shouldn't be sticklers for inconsequential minutiae, but since the
> Incubator is a TLP like any other and its releases are subject to
> Foundation-wide policy, I don't believe we have much freedom to accept a lower
> bar.  Your request is impossible.
>

That doesn't seem to be true from past evidence. I could trawl back
through the archives and pull out numerous instances of podling
releases with known flaws being approved by the Incubator PMC, ASF
directors, and in some instances with the blessing of the ASF board.
Even the Incubator policy document says "No release made by a Podling
will be endorsed by the ASF. Unendorsed releases may be made by
Podlings ..."

The main purpose of the voting is to protect the folks who make
release decisions. So long as they're not just wildly throwing about
+1 votes with no thought then the ASF will be fine with having some
wiggle room on release quality for Incubating projects. We could go
ask the board for clarification, but not so long ago Roy told us:

"The Incubator is that PMC.  Make a decision and run with it. If it
doesn't work out, try another decision and run with that. The only
time the board should step in (with a hammer) is when no decisions are
being made."

Isn't that enough to at least try some experiments with easier releases?

   ...ant

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