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From Dave Fisher <>
Subject Re: Populating the initial PPMC
Date Thu, 21 Nov 2013 02:13:47 GMT

For small projects, PPMC == Committers is a great starting point.

For huge projects like OpenOffice something like this would have been chaos unleashed.

If it were 3 or 4 then I would not have volunteered to be a Mentor for Apache Flex.

To me the answer should remain somewhere between 1 and 2 - the status quo.


On Nov 20, 2013, at 5:53 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 3:41 AM, Andy Seaborne <> wrote:
>> I am concerned that it would be dis-empowering to the incoming community if
>> at least the active and major developers of the podling were not on the PPMC
>> at the start.
> I don't see how we might divide up an "Initial Committer List" into "active
> and major developers" and "everyone else", so I think it's all or nothing.
> That gives us four ways to populate the initial PPMC:
> 1.  Mentors + Initial Commiter List
> 2.  Initial Committer List
> 3.  Mentors
> 4.  (empty)
> With regards to whether voting in all project contributors is
> "dis-empowering", I claim that it is precisely the opposite.  Going through
> the exercise of bootstrapping the PPMC allows people who are new to the ASF to
> become familiar with the ritual of personnel voting, and it provides a
> framework for conversations about the "PPMC member" role and its
> responsibilities, community development, recruitment and meritocracy.  In
> contrast, the present system denies ASF novices such practical experience
> until a new contributor wanders by.
> To the extent that any dis-empowerment happens under this proposal, it is
> exactly the same dis-empowerment which happens today: "active and major
> developers" who bring codebases to Apache relinquish control and become one
> vote among many on a PMC.  Subjecting such individuals to a vote on their
> merit (which will surely pass) just reveals the truth to them sooner.
> Perhaps with the truth laid bare, certain projects might not enter the
> Incubator.  Do we care?  Regretful project founders who are unable to let go
> have caused our communities a lot of grief, from both inside and outside
> Apache.
> Still, this isn't the hill I want to die on.  I think that starting with an
> empty PPMC is good policy for a variety of reasons, but I'm willing to be
> flexible for the sake of building consensus on how to address the truly
> damaging dis-empowerment of PPMC members with regards to release votes.  If
> an empty initial PPMC is a deal breaker for you, does it's removal unblock
> your support for the rest of the proposal at <>?
> Marvin Humphrey
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