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From Rob Vesse <>
Subject Re: Instead of a Bill how about a Booklet? (was Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights)
Date Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:37:26 GMT
I have written up the suggestions so far into a wiki page

The content is pretty much what has been included in this thread
reorganized with a few minor grammar tweaks here and there.

If people like this notion feel free to edit the page or continue
discussing here


On 6/20/13 12:22 PM, "Upayavira" <> wrote:

>11. In certain circumstances, there are specific people charged with
>certain responsibilities. Over time you can expect to learn who they
>are, and where they hang out. Your mentor should be able to guide you
>while you do learn. If, for whatever reason, they are unable or
>unwilling to, you can ask on the incubator general list. If the optic is
>too sensitive to discuss in public (eg a potential committer) you may
>contact the incubator ombudsman at
>On Thu, Jun 20, 2013, at 05:40 PM, Rob Vesse wrote:
>> +1
>> Having also come to Apache by joining a now graduated podling (Apache
>> Jena) I like the idea of a "What to expect" document and agree with
>> pretty
>> much everything that you lay out here.  I think people outside of Apache
>> often don't appreciate how a volunteer organization operates and many of
>> your points describe this in terms new folks can understand, as you
>> highlight Apache is not that different from many other organizations in
>> many respects.
>> I would suggest maybe adding a further point emphasizing the time aspect
>> you raised in your previous email
>> 4A) Don't forget that people here are geographically distributed and may
>> be in very different timezones.  There may be a significant lag between
>> sending a communication and the intended recipient(s) even reading it,
>> yet
>> alone having the time to actually act upon it.  A communication sent
>> first
>> thing in the morning in your timezone may arrive in the middle of the
>> night for the recipient(s) so be prepared to wait for a response.
>> I think those of us who work in the US or for multi-national companies
>> get
>> used to dealing with timezones and tend to forget that a lot of people
>> come from countries where there is only one timezone.
>> Rob
>> On 6/20/13 9:22 AM, "Alex Harui" <> wrote:
>> >Hi,  As a newbie, I've generally quietly watched from the sidelines,
>> >now I'm jumping in.
>> >
>> >+1 about "expectations" vs "rights".  In fact, it occurred to me that a
>> >booklet or pamphlet more like the "What to expect whenŠ" book would be
>> >better.  IMO, correctly set expectations make for happier people.
>>Here is
>> >my draft of  "What to expect when you enter the Apache Incubator".
>> >
>> >1)  Apache is staffed by volunteers, and a few paid, but overworked IT
>> >folks known as Infra.  As such, there is a very good chance that you
>> >get different answers from different respondents, and responses may be
>> >delayed.  This is not like your paid corporate job where there is
>> >administration and infrastructure whose mind-share is fully dedicated
>> >serving you.
>> >2) Apache has been around long enough and is large enough to have its
>> >culture, with its own societal rules and tribal history.   Lots of it
>> >written down, but it is hard to find.  Try to remember the last time
>> >started at a new company or team or club and how, even though there
>> >documents to read, there was always important stuff that you had to
>> >some other way.  Apache is no different, but with volunteers, even
>>less is
>> >written down, and people's recollections of history can vary widely and
>> >nobody is paid to serve your needs except Infra which is overloaded.
>> >3) Some folks are quiet, some are noisy, some complain, some are
>> >optimistic.  If you've worked on a large team, you've probably found
>> >to be true on that team as well.  Success usually comes from finding
>> >which folks you deal with are of which personality type, and how best
>> >work with those people.
>> >4) Often you just have to be patient.  Pick your battles.  Prioritize
>> >needs.  Ask politely once for really important things, then plead
>>again a
>> >few days later.
>> >5) Learn how to use an internet search engine.  Try to find information
>> >before you ask.  The results may be hard to understand or confusing
>>and be
>> >careful about reading snippets without taking in some of the larger
>> >context.  But then your question will be better defined.  Bonus if you
>> >quote a web page as part of your question.
>> >6) Some folks want there to be a "bill of rights", but you don't have
>> >"rights" because there are no authority figures at Apache to enforce
>> >rights.  Any "violations" have to be dealt with "socially".  You can
>> >help from the IPMC or even the board, but even they are volunteers and
>> >will try to address the problem socially as well.  You can expect and
>> >demand respectful discourse, but sometimes tempers will boil over.
>> >happens in many workplaces, homes and other gatherings of people.
>> >it here as well, even more so sometimes, as there are relatively few
>> >face-to-face encounters to encourage civility and limit chances of
>> >mis-interpretation.
>> >7) Your mentors may get too busy to follow the details of activity in
>> >podling.  Use the [MENTOR] tag in the subject to try to catch their
>> >attention.  Escalate to the Incubator IPMC if they still don't have
>> >to respond.
>> >8) Embrace diversity.  Every podling is a little bit different and your
>> >new podling may not exactly match up against existing documentation or
>> >prior history.  Ask for guidance, keep in mind that answers may vary,
>> >make your decision keeping these things in mind.
>> >A) The primary goal is to cover your and Apache's butt legally.  This
>> >require you to change build scripts and release packages in  a way
>>that is
>> >painful for you and your customers.
>> >B) Apache only officially releases source code.  This may be a pain
>> >for any existing customers used to downloading binary packages.
>> >C) At Apache, open source isn't just about making released source code
>> >available.  It is about trying to get the community involved early and
>> >often before the source code is "release-ready".
>> >9) Expect the unexpected.  Sometimes, a document you find may be
>> >out-of-date, and/or mention things that don't apply to you and when you
>> >ask about it, you'll get a totally surprising answer.
>> >10) Expect a ton of email.  The temptation will be to unsubscribe from
>> >some of the lists you are told to subscribe to, but it is important to
>> >learn how to filter out stuff and skim other stuff as it helps you
>> >about the people and personalities you will be dealing with
>> >post-graduation on occasion, and if you end up on your project's PMC,
>> >will be responsible for mining important information from that email
>> >stream.
>> >
>> >Now this may seem like it should make you run away screaming, but it
>> >adds up to one thing:  This is the "cost" of getting a group of
>> >to provide free software to a community of developers and users. You
>> >doing a good deed by coming to Apache.  You could just go to GitHub,
>> >Apache provides some legal and logistical processes that should make
>> >customers feel more secure that the code you want to work on will be
>> >available to the customer "forever" without fear that some individual
>> >disappear and sink the whole ship, or some legal issue will arise
>> >
>> >-Alex
>> >
>> >
>> >
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