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From Benson Margulies <bimargul...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:49:30 GMT
A simple alternative is 'expectation'. However, I have no problem with
using it the way Joe wrote it.


On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com>wrote:

> I did read the topmatter, but I still felt it was a concern. It's not
> just about mentors, that was just one example of a potential problem.
>
> Specifically the document currently says "podlings have a right to
> expect active participation and guidance from their mentors" - I fully
> support this, but as Upayavira asks, what can the IPMC do if this is
> not the case and no other mentors step up?
>
> I agree with your statement in this thread that mentoring is a
> "best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability not something we
> should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". I am not suggesting we commit
> to anything. Quite the opposite, I'm concerned that as your document
> is currently written it can be read as being a commitment (even with
> the topmatter making this explicit).
>
> It's hard to resolve without making your whole document just a bunch
> of words on a page. Maybe the topmatter is enough. Maybe I'm being too
> cautious.
>
> Anyway, as I said, on balance I really like this, if someone smart can
> wordsmith it then great. If not lets adopt it anyway.
>
> Ross
>
> On 19 June 2013 00:13, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Did you read the topmatter disclaimer about the terminology?
> > Anyway no podling has a guaranteed "right" to a sufficient number
> > of mentors, that's why I didn't bother addressing Upayavira's
> > concern.  That is a best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability
> > not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights".
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com>
> >> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
> >> Cc:
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:09 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
> >>
> >> Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and
> >> make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll
> >> refrain from doing so.
> >>
> >> I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a
> >> suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe
> >> someone else has a bright idea.
> >>
> >> My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer
> >> organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar
> >> might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something
> >> similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks:
> >>
> >> "I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to
> a
> >> perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the
> >> Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at
> >> that point?"
> >>
> >> Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too
> cautious.
> >>
> >> On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>  Since I realize that most of you can't be
> >>>  bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-),
> >>>  I'll go ahead and post the current content
> >>>  here for commentary.  I hope the bulk of it
> >>>  is non-controversial, though some of it may
> >>>  not belong on the page...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ------------------------------------------------
> >>>  First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC,
> >> podlings have no official standing in the corporation known as The
> Apache
> >> Software Foundation. So technically, it is a farce to claim that
> podlings have
> >> any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about here are promises and
> >> covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor.
> >>>
> >>>      1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and
> >> guidance from their mentors. That minimally includes participation in
> release
> >> votes, discussions and votes on new personnel, and signing off on a
> >> podling's quarterly reports.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such
> >> podlings have the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority
> consensus
> >> vote on their private list. Just don't be denigrating about it, since
> >> mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors
> have the
> >> right to ask general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be
> >> read, reviewed, and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who
> >> are typically outside the podling's set of mentors.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about
> anything
> >> related to their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman
> >> <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such communications as if they
> were
> >> sent anonymously.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning
> their
> >> incubation efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an
> anonymous
> >> survey.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on
> >> general@incubator in the middle of a VOTE thread, especially during
> releases.
> >> Reminder- release votes are a majority consensus vote, so seeing a few
> -1's
> >> occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM should they
> otherwise see
> >> a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to
> >> general@incubator. Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed
> along by
> >> the podling's mentors.
> >>>  ------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>  Comments and critiques welcome.  I'd like to
> >>>  move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement
> >>>  VOTE on this over the course of the remainder
> >>>  of June, so please be constructive!
> >>>
> >>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>  For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
> >
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> >
>
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>

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