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From Ross Gardler <rgard...@opendirective.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Tue, 18 Jun 2013 23:27:29 GMT
I did read the topmatter, but I still felt it was a concern. It's not
just about mentors, that was just one example of a potential problem.

Specifically the document currently says "podlings have a right to
expect active participation and guidance from their mentors" - I fully
support this, but as Upayavira asks, what can the IPMC do if this is
not the case and no other mentors step up?

I agree with your statement in this thread that mentoring is a
"best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability not something we
should commit to in a "Bill of Rights". I am not suggesting we commit
to anything. Quite the opposite, I'm concerned that as your document
is currently written it can be read as being a commitment (even with
the topmatter making this explicit).

It's hard to resolve without making your whole document just a bunch
of words on a page. Maybe the topmatter is enough. Maybe I'm being too
cautious.

Anyway, as I said, on balance I really like this, if someone smart can
wordsmith it then great. If not lets adopt it anyway.

Ross

On 19 June 2013 00:13, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Did you read the topmatter disclaimer about the terminology?
> Anyway no podling has a guaranteed "right" to a sufficient number
> of mentors, that's why I didn't bother addressing Upayavira's
> concern.  That is a best-effort attempt based on volunteer availability
> not something we should commit to in a "Bill of Rights".
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com>
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
>>
>> Joe, this is (in general) great. I feel I could pick a few holes and
>> make a few suggestions but they are mostly insignificant so I'll
>> refrain from doing so.
>>
>> I do have one concern I want to air. Unfortunately I don't have a
>> suggestion for improvement so am happy for you to ignore it, but maybe
>> someone else has a bright idea.
>>
>> My concern is the use of the word "right". We are a volunteer
>> organisation. Telling a podling they have a "right" to Foo and Bar
>> might set the wrong tone. Upayavira appears to be thinking something
>> similar (unless I'm misinterpreting him) when he asks:
>>
>> "I guess a question that it would be worth clarifying - what happens to a
>> perfectly reasonable podling who's mentors resign/go awol, when the
>> Incubator PMC cannot recruit replacements? Can we make any promises at
>> that point?"
>>
>> Perhaps we can use a slightly softer word - perhaps I'm being too cautious.
>>
>> On 16 June 2013 15:16, Joe Schaefer <joe_schaefer@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>  Since I realize that most of you can't be
>>>  bothered to look at the wiki page I created ;-),
>>>  I'll go ahead and post the current content
>>>  here for commentary.  I hope the bulk of it
>>>  is non-controversial, though some of it may
>>>  not belong on the page...
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------------------
>>>  First a clarification- as provisional constructs of the Incubator PMC,
>> podlings have no official standing in the corporation known as The Apache
>> Software Foundation. So technically, it is a farce to claim that podlings have
>> any formal rights whatsoever. What we write about here are promises and
>> covenants the Incubator PMC will make a good-faith effort to honor.
>>>
>>>      1. First, podlings have a right to expect active participation and
>> guidance from their mentors. That minimally includes participation in release
>> votes, discussions and votes on new personnel, and signing off on a
>> podling's quarterly reports.
>>>
>>>
>>>      2. Mentoring is done solely for the podling's benefit, and as such
>> podlings have the right to fire mentors for any reason by a majority consensus
>> vote on their private list. Just don't be denigrating about it, since
>> mentors are always volunteers and not paid staff.
>>>
>>>
>>>      3. Podlings who find themselves in need of additional mentors have the
>> right to ask general@incubator for more mentors to volunteer.
>>>
>>>
>>>      4. Podlings have the right to expect their quarterly reports to be
>> read, reviewed, and critiqued by "shepherds" on the Incubator PMC, who
>> are typically outside the podling's set of mentors.
>>>
>>>
>>>      5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything
>> related to their incubation to the Incubator Ombudsman
>> <ombudsman@incubator>, who will handle such communications as if they were
>> sent anonymously.
>>>
>>>
>>>      6. Podlings have the right to express their opinions concerning their
>> incubation efforts post-graduation (or post-mortem) in the form of an anonymous
>> survey.
>>>
>>>
>>>      7. Podlings have the right to ignore commentary made on
>> general@incubator in the middle of a VOTE thread, especially during releases.
>> Reminder- release votes are a majority consensus vote, so seeing a few -1's
>> occasionally is expected and often ignorable by the RM should they otherwise see
>> a majority of at least 3 binding IPMC votes.
>>>
>>>
>>>      8. Podling committers have the right to remain unsubscribed to
>> general@incubator. Any relevant policy/process changes will be passed along by
>> the podling's mentors.
>>>  ------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>  Comments and critiques welcome.  I'd like to
>>>  move the ball forward to a ceremonial endorsement
>>>  VOTE on this over the course of the remainder
>>>  of June, so please be constructive!
>>>
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>>>
>>
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