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From Roman Shaposhnik <>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] PodlingBillOfRights
Date Mon, 17 Jun 2013 19:26:42 GMT
On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Joe Schaefer <> wrote:
>> So isn't learning this bit of information a crucial part of graduation?
>> After
>> all, once the project leaves the incubator its commiters and PMC won't have
>> an access to the Ombudsman, isn't it in all of our best interest to teach
>> them from the get-go what you've just described above?
> Not really, because the type of information we're looking for is about the
> IPMC, not the podling.

Perhaps I misunderstood your idea with this new Ombudsman, but to me
it sounded like you wanted, above all, a *safe* way for podling to complain.
IOW, a kind of a way where their complaints will be heard yet their identity
protected. If that's not your primary concern -- then I really feel like
an Ombudsman represented yet another layer of bureaucracy and as
such I'd be -0 on it.

> Isn't this an academic question?  Those of us that have been here a while have
> seen any number of cases where podling committers feel frustrated about the
> process and powerless to do anything about it.  This isn't a new problem.

As you probably noticed, I've only started this discussion in the context
of a PodlingBillOfRights. You did a great job of *reminding* podlings of
their rights. Note, that just like in criminal law -- not reading somebody their
Miranda rights doesn't mean they don't have them -- but reading them
does make a huge difference. I think we can all agree that podlings already
have those rights -- we are just making it really explicit.

In that line of thought, what's not clear to me is what would be the
difference if we changed your right #5 to:

5. Podlings have the right to express private concerns about anything
related to
their incubation to their mentors and in private to the IPMC chair
(email goes here).
If they feel their concerns are still not being addressed they have a
right to escalate
to or all the way to the ASF board at
This is the same right as given to all ASF project members.


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