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From Niall Pemberton <niall.pember...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)
Date Wed, 03 Apr 2013 00:15:44 GMT
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 2:00 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> Hi Niall,
>
> First off, thanks for reading my proposal!
>
> Specific comments below:
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Niall Pemberton <niall.pemberton@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> Date: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:00 AM
> To: general-incubator <general@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
> majority vote vs consensus)
>
> >On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Ross,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Ross Gardler <rgardler@opendirective.com>
> >> Reply-To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Date: Sunday, March 31, 2013 5:20 PM
> >> To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters:
> >> majority vote vs consensus)
> >>
> >> >On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) <
> >> >chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22
> >> >> nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Because they are not watching with the same manner. They are
> >>delegating a
> >> >huge range of tasks such as IP oversight and mentoring to the IPMC.
> >>
> >> Yep this is the sticking point where we disagree -- b/c I disagree with
> >> that.
> >> 2 tasks are not a huge range. Also my table of responsibilities in the
> >> proposal [1]
> >> I believe clearly specifies where any responsibility is shifted and not
> >> one of
> >> them is the Board.
> >
> >
> >There are two responsibilities you list that shift to the board - 1) spots
> >problems with mentoring 2) fixes problems with mentoring.
>
> I agree, "spots problems with mentoring" could potentially fall on the
> board,
> if the incoming new project and its 3 ASF members don't spot the problem
> beforehand. Just like it falls to the the board related to all projects if
> there are "issues" (mentoring, the Apache Way or otherwise).
>
> Before I add that to my proposal, I would ask you to consider some of my
> recent emails related to mentoring issues with podlings, and ask that if
> you think that the IPMC is currently doing a great of spotting problems
> with mentoring.

If you, if you can please cite examples that would be great. I have counter
> examples (Mesos, for one) wherein which emails requesting help have gone
> unanswered, but if you have others in support of that, I'd appreciate
> hearing
> them.


The issue with Mesos mentors was raised by a shepherd - it did result in
one new mentor for a short while. Then when that persons stepped down, you
volunteered. I agree its still an issue for Mesos - so hasn't been
successfully resolved. What I do see on a regular basis is shepherds
reporting back on mentor status as part of the oversight role. I would be
surprised if the board wanted to do this work.


> >
> >Also in your proposal oversight of releases is discarded and therefore I
> >would add "spots problems with releases" is also therefore ultimately the
> >boards responsibility.
>
> My philosophy is that there can remain a small set of mentors, e.g., these
> "shepherds" if you will that ought to volunteer for projects as they come
> into the ASF and be part of their initial PMC. The initial "Champion" role
> should also be an ASF member, until the incoming project is ready to elect
> its own chair (should happen in < 1 year).
>
> These same people are likely going to be the same people who are great at
> checking releases now (sebb, Marvin, others). There doesn't need to be an
> IPMC for them to do that.
>

Actually there does. PMC's are responsible for releases - they do the
checks AND vote as part of the IPMC - so its an IPMC release. Take away
their PMC role and the checks alone are just an opinion with no power to
approve or not. I'm not necessarily opposed to that (haven't given it
thought)  - but if the project is given responsibility for releases - then
the board will have to take ultimate responsibility for catching &
resolving issues.


>
> >
> >Jukka & now Benson have IMO been successful in focusing podlings on what
> >they need to do to graduate and pushing them through the process - rather
> >than staying for years in the incubator. So I would add this to the list
> >of
> >what the board would need to pick up.
>
> Well sorry, I don't think it's Jukka and Benson. I've never been a
> shepherd
> once, neither has Chris Douglas, neither has a bunch of people that have
> successfully brought podlings through the Incubator as of late.
>
> Jukka and Benson aren't necessarily the only reasons that things shaped up
> around here though I wholly appreciate their efforts.


Apologies - I didn't mean to diminish anyone elses efforts.


> >
> >Lastly I would also say that shifting voting on new projects from a public
> >to private list is not an improvement and would exclude those proposing
> >from answering any objections or concerns.
>
> Yes, I am +1 for that. In my proposal, I've gone and updated it to shift
> that responsibility to voting on general@incubator (which as I mention
> in my proposal will remain).
>

OK, so I guess that net effect is ASF members not on IPMC now get binding
vote and IPMC members that are not ASF members no longer get a binding
vote. Seems that this is removing people that earned it by merit and adding
people that never had an interest in incubator.


> One note I'd add -- in my proposal, responsibility is not directly shifted
> onto the board, until it's shown that the incoming project's committee
> is unable to handle it:
>
> (see shifted responsibility:
> The project's PMC. And if not, the project's VP. And if not that, the
> board
> or the membership. Just like the current way it works for existing TLPs.
>
> )
>
> HTH.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Senior Computer Scientist
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> WWW:  http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>
>
>
>
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