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Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:39:15 -0500
Message-ID: 
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Subject: Re: More and better report nagging
From: Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com>
To: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 5:21 AM, Upayavira <uv@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> Personally, I'm not against nagging. Actually, when I'm on the receiving
> end, I usually appreciate it, as timeliness is not a quality I am widely
> praised for.
>
> Some podlings are in a position that is different from TLPs - they are
> new to the whole thing, and may therefore require a little more help
> than we would expect a TLP to need in remembering their
> responsibilities. However, if I were needing to nag a podling that is
> otherwise near graduation, I'd perhaps be worried.
>
> The DNR marker is still important though, and we should be sure that we
> don't 'over-nag'. We encourage (more earlier in the process of
> incubation, less later) and if after a few nags they don't do it, then
> DNR is just fine.


I want, at least, a *quick* way to find out how many DNR's are
pending, and be able to make informed decisions about nagging. So I
plan to go ahead with the template that allows a tool to tell who is
missing.

>
> Upayavira
>
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 09:04 AM, David Crossley wrote:
>> Tim Williams wrote:
>> > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Marvin Humphrey <marvin@rectangular.com> wrote:
>> > >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Tim Williams <williamstw@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>> FWIW, I feel the same.  I'd rather see 'did not report' and let the
>> > >>> IPMC look for that pattern. Maybe just have your template generator
>> > >>> default to DNR in the text?
>> > >>
>> > >> +1 on defaulting to DNR.
>> > >>
>> > >> How about sending out the whole Incubator report to all podling dev lists,
>> > >> every month?  That way the DNR shows up without an IPMC member having to
>> > >> notice and take action.  But in addition, it increases podling exposure to
>> > >> other projects and to the ASF at large.
>> > >>
>> > >> An alternative is to send it out to only the podlings that are reporting for a
>> > >> cycle, but that's more work and doesn't serve the purpose of connecting the
>> > >> podling to being in the Incubator quite so cleanly.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I feel  all that we are all volunteers, that podlings are volunteers
>> > > who don't necessarily have their organizational act together, and that
>> > > calling them out for DNR is not a very effective technique to
>> > > providing the supervision that we, as a PMC, are on the hook for.  So
>> > > I'm inclined for now to nag, and to spend a few minutes making that
>> > > job less labor-intensive.
>> >
>> > I'm beginning to think your mind's made up and the original question
>> > was a pleasantry, but in case not...
>> >
>> > I hold a different view of things.  While I think that we, ok you, are
>> > on the hook for a board report, we've (PMC) delegated[1] the reporting
>> > of each podling to the mentors that we approved for that podling.  We
>> > aren't "calling out the podling" as DNR - we're calling out their
>> > mentor as DNR.  If there's additional nags to go out, I'd do my
>> > "default to DNR" and send the nag to the mentors directly.
>> >
>> > Ultimately, making that job less labor-intensive involves getting
>> > mentors and would-be-mentors to realize they can't simply go around
>> > spewing their seeds as absentee fathers - it's a real commitment; to
>> > the podling and to the foundation.  Shucks, keeping a record of
>> > deadbeat mentors would prolly help...
>> >
>> > In the end though, you've a thankless and tough job, so consider these
>> > as constructive thoughts to be readily ignored in favor of whatever it
>> > takes to get your job done:)
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > --tim
>> >
>> > [1] - http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
>>
>> Things should be in their hands as much as possible.
>>
>> In my opinion each podling group of developers should be
>> ensuring that their board report is ready, with the mentors
>> just mentoring and making sure that actual status does get
>> reported.
>>
>> I wonder if we could utilise the podling metadata system
>> at content/podlings.xml
>> to get a podling PPMC member or a mentor to set an attribute
>> to mark that the report is received. Put the PPMC in the loop.
>>
>> This gets them used to overseeing their own project, being
>> self-reliant, and maintaining their own records.
>>
>> Another benefit of editing that file is that they see when
>> their next report is due and whether their metadata needs
>> to be updated.
>>
>> Any nag to them could encourage them to visit that file.
>>
>> -David
>>
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