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From Upayavira ...@odoko.co.uk>
Subject Re: More and better report nagging
Date Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:21:37 GMT
Personally, I'm not against nagging. Actually, when I'm on the receiving
end, I usually appreciate it, as timeliness is not a quality I am widely
praised for.

Some podlings are in a position that is different from TLPs - they are
new to the whole thing, and may therefore require a little more help
than we would expect a TLP to need in remembering their
responsibilities. However, if I were needing to nag a podling that is
otherwise near graduation, I'd perhaps be worried. 

The DNR marker is still important though, and we should be sure that we
don't 'over-nag'. We encourage (more earlier in the process of
incubation, less later) and if after a few nags they don't do it, then
DNR is just fine.

Upayavira

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012, at 09:04 AM, David Crossley wrote:
> Tim Williams wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:48 PM, Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Marvin Humphrey <marvin@rectangular.com>
wrote:
> > >> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Tim Williams <williamstw@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > >>> FWIW, I feel the same.  I'd rather see 'did not report' and let the
> > >>> IPMC look for that pattern. Maybe just have your template generator
> > >>> default to DNR in the text?
> > >>
> > >> +1 on defaulting to DNR.
> > >>
> > >> How about sending out the whole Incubator report to all podling dev lists,
> > >> every month?  That way the DNR shows up without an IPMC member having to
> > >> notice and take action.  But in addition, it increases podling exposure
to
> > >> other projects and to the ASF at large.
> > >>
> > >> An alternative is to send it out to only the podlings that are reporting
for a
> > >> cycle, but that's more work and doesn't serve the purpose of connecting
the
> > >> podling to being in the Incubator quite so cleanly.
> > >
> > >
> > > I feel  all that we are all volunteers, that podlings are volunteers
> > > who don't necessarily have their organizational act together, and that
> > > calling them out for DNR is not a very effective technique to
> > > providing the supervision that we, as a PMC, are on the hook for.  So
> > > I'm inclined for now to nag, and to spend a few minutes making that
> > > job less labor-intensive.
> > 
> > I'm beginning to think your mind's made up and the original question
> > was a pleasantry, but in case not...
> > 
> > I hold a different view of things.  While I think that we, ok you, are
> > on the hook for a board report, we've (PMC) delegated[1] the reporting
> > of each podling to the mentors that we approved for that podling.  We
> > aren't "calling out the podling" as DNR - we're calling out their
> > mentor as DNR.  If there's additional nags to go out, I'd do my
> > "default to DNR" and send the nag to the mentors directly.
> > 
> > Ultimately, making that job less labor-intensive involves getting
> > mentors and would-be-mentors to realize they can't simply go around
> > spewing their seeds as absentee fathers - it's a real commitment; to
> > the podling and to the foundation.  Shucks, keeping a record of
> > deadbeat mentors would prolly help...
> > 
> > In the end though, you've a thankless and tough job, so consider these
> > as constructive thoughts to be readily ignored in favor of whatever it
> > takes to get your job done:)
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > --tim
> > 
> > [1] - http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Roles_and_Responsibilities.html#Mentor
> 
> Things should be in their hands as much as possible.
> 
> In my opinion each podling group of developers should be
> ensuring that their board report is ready, with the mentors
> just mentoring and making sure that actual status does get
> reported.
> 
> I wonder if we could utilise the podling metadata system
> at content/podlings.xml
> to get a podling PPMC member or a mentor to set an attribute
> to mark that the report is received. Put the PPMC in the loop.
> 
> This gets them used to overseeing their own project, being
> self-reliant, and maintaining their own records.
> 
> Another benefit of editing that file is that they see when
> their next report is due and whether their metadata needs
> to be updated.
> 
> Any nag to them could encourage them to visit that file.
> 
> -David
> 
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