From general-return-36296-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Thu Jun 21 19:36:32 2012 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: from mail.apache.org (hermes.apache.org [140.211.11.3]) by minotaur.apache.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E88CFE9F for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:36:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: (qmail 54864 invoked by uid 500); 21 Jun 2012 19:36:32 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 54625 invoked by uid 500); 21 Jun 2012 19:36:32 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 54615 invoked by uid 99); 21 Jun 2012 19:36:32 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:36:32 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of kevan.miller@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.210.47] (HELO mail-pz0-f47.google.com) (209.85.210.47) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 19:36:24 +0000 Received: by dalh21 with SMTP id h21so1268901dal.6 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=O42Srpc/M/dFdsxnf6ItXTnkI71KfBRX1ydm3wazcVA=; b=h4lLf8otXJPQkTuyJ0S9XyE22/iMkH79U3TNPFqT8R7BZsyL/2xQXGbXzgg4aGQksh oKjhzM3eB2589lgqytChf/nXUu2d0onz5AiJKG40SWaTCygW4ePAYPakXxYHGJ1avZF2 43h/RtKe4glEQKcWu5hElgSHC+3oE9a3N86k0Y3YZH7IHr3dIynVtnN4BOz9FgQExmyW XxRIVR5nnLfK1KeM8qmgyhF1VmNceTqzaLg7pOLchE32y9yYXVqttllQ52KAjz/Ij4Hg SXzsFRaXIlagFU8css0cWyzS7kPbHHnqpXzQ18Sw5v7zOiQio6jNwWsfPbKaH1JC+3Kk mTMQ== Received: by 10.68.194.4 with SMTP id hs4mr1380350pbc.128.1340307363826; Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [9.27.38.103] ([129.33.49.241]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id rv5sm36495487pbc.56.2012.06.21.12.36.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Jun 2012 12:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1278) Subject: Re: [VOTE] Release Kafka 0.7.1-incubating (Candidate 2) From: Kevan Miller In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2012 15:35:58 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8B9E02CE-308B-44F6-B288-F169994D0141@gmail.com> References: <905C8CDB-3BEC-4BC3-BBA4-3AD9D977E561@toolazydogs.com> <7A07774E-9F9C-4FF8-BA63-1FF9CE3180CF@gmail.com> To: general@incubator.apache.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1278) X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org On Jun 21, 2012, at 1:50 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: > On Thu, Jun 21, 2012 at 6:15 AM, Kevan Miller = wrote: >> On Jun 21, 2012, at 1:20 AM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote: >=20 >>> With that said, I think it's something good and extremely useful to = strive >>> for. The lack of it, i.e. extensive documentation in LICENSE/NOTICE = with >>> regards to transitive dependencies, is not a showstopper IMO unless = there >>> are explicit rules prohibiting it on the ASF rules. >>=20 >> I don't have a chapter and verse to quote you. I'll work on = getting/creating >> some clarification. I may not be able to start on that for the next = few >> days... >=20 > I feel like I'm missing something. There shouldn't be any difference = between > a first-order dependency and a transitive dependency. All that = matters is > whether or not the dependency is bundled, right?[1] Why would we need = ASF > rules regarding *transitive* dependency license documentation in = particular? Because Alan and I disagreed and nobody else had commented? ;-) >=20 > So long as we bundle the bits, we have to bundle the licensing -- = possibly > bubbling up any relevant ALv2 NOTICE provisions into the top-level = NOTICE > since that's what the ALv2 requires. On the other hand, if the bits = aren't > bundled, then the licensing shouldn't be bundled either. >=20 > If the bundled dependencies of the canonical ASF source release and a > convenience binary differ, then their licensing must be analyzed = separately > and may differ. >=20 > If a project has a gazillion dependencies, regardless of whether those > dependencies are direct or transitive, that makes dealing with = licensing more > challenging, but it doesn't change our legal obligations. I think you and I agree. Though there may be some ambiguities in what we = mean by direct or transitive dependencies. So, attempting to clarify: I think Alan's (Kafka's) position is that dependencies don't matter = since they are not distributing binary artifacts.=20 I would agree with Alan, if Kafka source was simply intended to be used = in source form. That's not the case. The Kafka project is designed to be = built/compiled into a distribution. So, IMO, Kafka must document their = dependencies. Note that if Kafka only had compile-time/test-time = dependencies and simply built .jar files (and someone else was = responsible for bundling everything together into a "distribution"), = then I'd have a different opinion.=20 In this case, the Kafka source release contains AL v2 licensed source = code along with some binary artifacts under several licenses (you're = welcome to comment on this, also). The Kafka LICENSE/NOTICE files only = contain the licenses for this source code and the binary artifacts = contained within the source release. They don't document the = dependencies that they will bundle into a distribution.=20 --kevan >=20 > Marvin Humphrey >=20 > [1] Leaving aside concerns about copyleft, field of use restrictions, = etc. >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org >=20 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org