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Subject: Re: Flume Graduation (was Re: June reports in two weeks)
From: Ralph Goers <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com>
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Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 23:18:51 -0700
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To: general@incubator.apache.org


On May 23, 2012, at 10:48 PM, Patrick Hunt wrote:

> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Ralph Goers
> <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On May 23, 2012, at 10:15 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Wed, May 23, 2012 at 10:09 PM, Ralph Goers
>>> <ralph.goers@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>>>> Right after I read Jukka's email that started this thread and I =
posted my reply and discovered to my shock that they had started a =
graduation vote.  I am shocked because I have pointed out repeatedly the =
project's complete lack of diversity.  Virtually all the active PMC =
members and committers work for the same employer.  I have told them =
several times that I would actually like to participate in the project =
but the way the project works is very different then every other project =
I am involved with at the ASF and the barriers to figure out what is =
actually going on is very high. Almost nothing is discussed directly on =
the dev list - it is all done through Jira issues or the Review tool.  =
While all the Jira issue updates and reviews are sent to the dev list =
most of that is just noise.  Feel free to review the dev list archives =
to see what I am talking about.
>>>=20
>>> I don't follow flume, but I'd propose to soften your objection only
>>> slightly. I've met other groups of people who like a JIRA centric =
view
>>> of the world. I suspect that if they did a bunch of other good =
things
>>> called out below, you or others would find the JIRA business
>>> digestible. Also, on the other hand, I fear that the co-employed
>>> contributors are collaborating in the hallway, and the lack of the
>>> context in JIRA or on the list is contributing to the problem.
>>=20
>> I have reason to doubt the collaboration in the hallway aspect and I =
certainly do not doubt everyone's good intent.  I'm not objecting to the =
collaboration style as an issue preventing graduation. I'm just saying I =
find it difficult to participate with that style and that simply makes =
me wonder if that is making it harder to attract new committers.  I =
fully realize that that issue might just be with me, but the fact =
remains that there is practically no diversity in the project and I =
cannot in good conscience recommend graduation for a project in that =
situation.
>>=20
>=20
> Hi Ralph, Benson, et. al., some background:
>=20
> Flume is similar to Hadoop and other related projects in that it is
> very jira heavy for development activity. No slouch in terms of
> mailing list traffic either though (1200 last month):
> http://flume.markmail.org/

Sorry I didn't include this in my prior post but here you are making my =
point exactly.  I participate in several other Apache projects. Wading =
through 1200+ emails per month that are largely Jira/Review noise makes =
it very difficult for me to find posts that have any value. As a =
consequence I am largely forced to simply delete everything generated by =
he Review tool and Jira.  And I'm a mentor. I just don't see how =
newcomers are going to find this style welcoming.

Ralph


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