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Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:55:12 +0100
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 <CA+67v59F3q=0sww7LdjXQdZrPryu6XkZBJzkBxny+2HzHmWjtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator
From: Raju Bitter <rajubitter@googlemail.com>
To: Dave McAllister <dmcallis@adobe.com>
Cc: "general@incubator.apache.org" <general@incubator.apache.org>
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Thanks, Dave, that's correct.

Who will be managing/governing the ActionScript language, after Flex
has been contributed to Apache? Is there a steering committee planned
for the language?

I can imagine that there are a number of products at Adobe using
ActionScript 3. And changes to the language would then affect not only
the Flex SDK, but other product lines?

If the ActionScript language evolution will be governed by Apache
Flex, you might want to add a short paragraph to the Apache Flex
proposal.

Raju

2011/12/20 Dave McAllister <dmcallis@adobe.com>:
> One small clarification. ActionScript is a variant off of ECMascript 3
> (ES3). ECMAscript 4, which included significant functionality
> fromActionScript was removed from active standard development in favor of
> ECMAscript 5, a incremental update to ES3. http://adobe.ly/vO2EI6
>
> ECMA is currently working on the next version of ECMascript.
>
> davemc
> --
> Dave McAllister
> Director, Open Source and Standards
> Core Services, Experience and Technology Organization
> Adobe Systems, Inc.
> W: +1 408-536-3881
> GC: +1 650-523-4942
>
> Linux Journal Editorial Adviser, http://www.linuxjournal.com
>
>
>
> On 12/19/11 10:32 PM, "Alex Harui" <aharui@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>>My responses inline.
>>
>>
>>On 12/19/11 3:39 PM, "Raju Bitter" <rajubitter@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alex,
>>>
>>> the proposal looks very promising. I have a few questions around
>>> ActionScript, runtime environments for compiled code, HTML5/JavaScript
>>> cross-compilation support, and target runtime environments listed:
>>>
>>> 1) When you speak of ActionScript, is it planned to continue the
>>> development of the ActionScript language as a standard separate from
>>> future JavaScript standards? I know that ActionScript 3 is an
>>> ECMAScript 4 dialect
>>> (http://www-archive.mozilla.org/projects/tamarin/), but believe it
>>> would make sense to set the goal to move away from ActionScript 3 in
>>> favor of a future ECMAScript/JavaScript version (long term goal, of
>>> course).
>>This proposal is about the Flex SDK, which is currently written in
>>ActionScript 3. =C2=A0It is my understanding that a future decision to mo=
ve
>>away
>>from ActionScript 3 would be decided by those contributing to the project=
.
>>I would not state it as a goal in this proposal as I don't think there is
>>a
>>good alternative at this time.
>>>
>>> 2) Flex for desktop / Flash Player
>>> Since the current version of the compiler "only" compiles to
>>> ActionScript bytecode, it effectively would mean that an Apache
>>> Software Foundation project would generate output which - in a desktop
>>> browser - can only be executed by the proprietary Adobe Flash Player.
>>> Are there any other ASF projects targeting proprietary runtime
>>> environments? Wouldn't it be desirable to support an open standards
>>> based runtime environment as well (Falcon JS)?
>>It is my understanding that it is up to those contributing to the project=
,
>>but I expect there will be work done that explores migration strategies,
>>including cross-compiling to other runtime environments.
>>>
>>> 3) Falcon JS: ActionScript 3 -> JavaScript 1.5 cross-compilation
>>> I'm aware of the FalconJS research Adobe has started (an ActionScript
>>> 3 to JavaScript 1.5 cross-compiler, which can be integrated into the
>>> next version of the Adobe/Apache Flex SDK). Supporting JavaScript
>>> generation out of ActionScript (including CSS styling) could turn
>>> Apache Flex into the perfect platform for smooth migration to HTML 5
>>> applications in enterprises. FalconJS is not mentioned in the
>>> proposal, but a blog post of the Adobe Flex Compiler team on Nov 19th
>>> (http://blogs.adobe.com/flex/2011/11/your-questions-about-flex.html)
>>> it has been said that Falcon JS would be contributed to the ASF as
>>> well:
>>>
>>>> In addition to contributing the core Flex SDK (including automation
>>>> and advanced data visualization components), Adobe also plans to
>>>> donate the following:
>>>> =C2=A0 + Falcon, the next-generation MXML and ActionScript compiler th=
at is
>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0currently under development (this will be contribu=
ted when
>>>>complete
>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in 2012)
>>>> =C2=A0 + Falcon JS, an experimental cross-compiler from MXML and
>>>>ActionScript
>>>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to HTML and JavaScript.
>>>
>>> Is that still the plan, since Falcon JS is not mentioned in the
>>> proposal? I can imagine that there would be a lot of interest in the
>>> community to see Falcon JS contributed, even if the the product is not
>>> feature complete.
>>The plan is to donate the Flex SDK to Apache, then start the process of
>>donating other Flex-related projects. =C2=A0Next will probably be BlazeDS=
.
>>FalconJS is on the list. =C2=A0Many people believe that the differences b=
etween
>>ActionScript and JavaScript (AS has Dictionary and weak references and
>>ByteArrays) will make the effort to cross-compile a given Flex app to JS
>>either impossible, impractical, or non-performant.
>>>
>>> 4) iOS, Android, RIM, Windows & OS X support
>>> In the proposal you state:
>>>> Apache Flex allows developers to target a variety of platforms,
>>>>initially
>>>> Apple iOS, Google Android, RIM BlackBerry, Microsoft Windows, and
>>>> Mac OS X with a single codebase.
>>> My understanding of the proposal is, that you are only proposing to
>>> contribute the Flex SDK, as opposed to the Flex SDK AND the Adobe AIR
>>> SDK.
>>> http://www.adobe.com/products/air.html
>>> The Flex SDK alone doesn't enable developers to compile from
>>> ActionScript 3 into iOS, Android, RIM, Windows and OS X. That means,
>>> it would still require the proprietary AIR SDK to support all those
>>> platforms. Therefore the proposal should mention that developers could
>>> target a variety of additional platforms, if they choose to download
>>> the Adobe AIR SDK and runtime. I understand that it might not be
>>> possible to completely open source the AIR SDK, due to legal issues.
>>Yes, some other SDKs that are listed as External Dependencies are require=
d
>>to produce a running Flex application.
>>>
>>> 5) PhoneGap / Apache Callback proposal
>>> Nitobi proposed to contribute PhoneGap to the ASF
>>> (http://wiki.phonegap.com/w/page/46311152/apache-callback-proposal).
>>> After that announcement, Nitobi has been acquired by Adobe.
>>> If Falcon JS will be released, it would be possible to integrate
>>> Falcon JS compilation with PhoneGap (HTML5/JavaScript based mobile
>>> apps for a variety of platforms). Even if it is possible to compile
>>> ActionScript 3 into iOS or Android applications (native), the
>>> ActionScript 3 -> JavaScript -> PhoneGap approach would be equally
>>> powerful, and could be completely supported with open source tools. Of
>>> course, that would depend on the availability of the Falcon JS
>>> cross-compilation feature.
>>>
>>> 7) Adobe Flash runtimes
>>> http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplatformruntimes.html
>>> The runtimes currently targeted by the Flex SDK (without Falcon JS) are
>>> http://www.adobe.com/products/flashplayer.html
>>> http://www.adobe.com/products/air.html
>>> I would suggest to add the long-term goal of adding another
>>> (non-proprietary) runtime to the Flex SDK (e.g. Falcon JS with the
>>> cross-compiler)
>>I would hesitate to make that a goal, even a long-term goal. =C2=A0I woul=
d
>>prefer
>>to focus the project contributors on strategies I think will be more
>>achievable, but it is my understanding that is up to the project once
>>established.
>>>
>>> 8) Open standards support
>>> The whole proposal does not mention open standards, JavaScript, or the
>>> buzz word "HTML5". Again, it might make sense to make support of open
>>> standards with Adobe Flex a high-level goal.
>>I'm unclear whether such goals are typically part of these proposals.
>>We've
>>heard from the community that a migration strategy is important, but Adob=
e
>>has no official recommendation on whether it is cross-compilation, or
>>porting the code to JavaScript and other open standards, or something els=
e
>>and hope to create a project within Apache and use the "Apache Way" to
>>decide.
>>>
>>> It's exciting to see Adobe's willingness to contribute Flex to the ASF.
>>>
>>> Raju Bitter
>>> Software Architect & Open Source Evangelist
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I would like to propose Flex to be an Apache Incubator project.
>>>>
>>>> Here's a link to the proposal:
>>>> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/FlexProposal
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Alex Harui
>>>> Flex SDK Team
>>>> Adobe Systems, Inc.
>>>> http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>--
>>Alex Harui
>>Flex SDK Team
>>Adobe Systems, Inc.
>>http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
>>
>>
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>


--=20
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Raju Bitter | Software Architect
cell: +49 (0) 176 322 011 96
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email: rajubitter@googlemail.com
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