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From Raju Bitter <rajubit...@googlemail.com>
Subject Re: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator
Date Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:05:06 GMT
Thanks for the clarification, Carol. Appreciate your response!

Raju

On 12/21/11 3:19 PM, Carol Frampton wrote:
> Raju,
>
> I was at the Flex Summit that Peter blogged about.  At the pre-summit
> briefing I attended, Danny Winokur, the VP who hosted the meeting, said
> that as of last Monday, Adobe was still selling new support contracts for
> Adobe Flex 4.6 and I believe he said that during the summit as well.
> Danny also said Adobe does not plan to offer support contracts for Apache
> Flex.
>
> I did notice that Peter's blog was incorrect on this point.
>
> Carol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raju Bitter<rajubitter@googlemail.com>
> Reply-To: "rajubitter@gmail.com"<rajubitter@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:31:58 -0800
> To: Adobe Systems<cframpto@adobe.com>
> Cc: "general@incubator.apache.org"<general@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator
>
>> Thanks for that information, Carol!
>>
>> Based on this blog post on the Flex Summit it sounded like the company
>> made an announcement on support contracts there:
>> http://www.peterelst.com/blog/2011/12/13/flex-summit-updates-on-the-open-s
>> ource-strategy-and-runtimes/
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Raju
>>
>> 2011/12/20 Carol Frampton<cframpto@adobe.com>:
>>> Raju,
>>>
>>> I believe Adobe is selling support contracts for Adobe Flex version 4.6.
>>>
>>> Apache Flex, although initially the same codebase as Adobe Flex 4.6,
>>> would
>>> be a different product.  The community can take it in whatever direction
>>> it would like to go.
>>>
>>> Carol
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Raju Bitter<rajubitter@googlemail.com>
>>> Reply-To: "rajubitter@gmail.com"<rajubitter@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:49:13 -0800
>>> To: "general@incubator.apache.org"<general@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Flex for Apache Incubator
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the quick response, Greg!
>>>>
>>>> On 12/20/11 9:37 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 15:30, Raju Bitter<rajubitter@googlemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>>> 2) Action Script Virtual Machine (AVM)
>>>>>> In November 2006 Adobe open source the Flash Player Script engine:
>>>>>> http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/press/mozilla-2006-11-07.html
>>>>>> Is the source code of Tamarin still the current version of the Action
>>>>>> Script
>>>>>> Virtual Machine in Flash Player 11? If there is a new version of
the
>>>>>> AVM
>>>>>> (2+), will that be contributed to the Apache Software Foundation
as
>>>>>> well?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It doesn't really make sense to only contribute a compiler, if there
>>>>>> is no
>>>>>> open source implementation of a runtime/scripting engine available,
>>>>>> but that
>>>>>> might only be my personal view. If the community would decide to
>>>>>> create a an
>>>>>> open standards based runtime for Flex, would that mean the community
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> have to start from zero?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's just your personal view :-)
>>>> That's true, but still would be good to have an open source, up-to-date
>>>> scripting engine for ActionScript bytecode to enable other future
>>>> runtimes (imagine running the same ActionScript 3 code in the client and
>>>> on the server, like node.js). Therefore it would be very valuable to
>>>> know if Tamarin is still compatible with the scripting engine Flash
>>>> Player 11.
>>>>
>>>>> There is a ton of open source code written to work against Oracle's
>>>>> RDBMS, or Windows' .NET runtime, or Apple's iOS. I see no problem with
>>>>> Apache Flex targeting a proprietary environment.
>>>> I'm not sure which projects you are talking about: .NET runtime should
>>>> be compatible to Mono,
>>>>
>>>>>> 3) Commercial support for Apache Flex
>>>>>> Does Adobe plan to offer support for an Apache Flex product? If yes,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> kind of support would be planned. I read somewhere that Adobe will
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> offer
>>>>>> any support for Flex 4.6+ to new customers, but I'm not sure, if
>>>>>> that's
>>>>>> still the current plan.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this is orthogonal/unrelated to the Apache Flex proposal.
>>>> I think it is related to the proposal. If Adobe has binding contracts
>>>> for future versions of Flex, and the Apache community would decide to
>>>> change Apache Flex 4.7 implementation details, Adobe might be forced to
>>>> fork the project for customers. How would that work?
>>>>
>>>>>> 4) Flash Player
>>>>>> Are there any plans to open source a stripped-down version of Flash
>>>>>> Player,
>>>>>> e.g. the discontinued version of Flash Player for mobile) in the
>>>>>> future
>>>>>> (similar to the pure open source Flex SDK vs. the commercial SDK)?
>>>>>> The
>>>>>> Apache community could continue working on a browser-based mobile
>>>>>> runtime
>>>>>> for Apache Flex, if that was the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Likewise.
>>>> Isn't it a valid question to ask which runtimes will be available for a
>>>> a framework with compiler? To be technically correct, Flex applications
>>>> WON'T run in mobile browsers without a Flash Player (which means you
>>>> won't see a Flex application on iOS). You CAN compile a Flex application
>>>> into a mobile application using the Adobe AIR SDK and the Adobe AIR
>>>> player. The proposal mentions rich Internet applications running in
>>>> desktop and mobile browsers. Elsewhere iOS is mentioned. As we all know,
>>>> Flash applications (SWF files) cannot be rendered in iOS browser.
>>>> Therefore the question if there will be a way run mobile Flex
>>>> applications in mobile browsers as rich Internet applications (versus
>>>> native apps) is very valid in my eyes.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope I don't sound to skeptical here, but Adobe Flex is quite
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> from most Apache projects I've been in contact with. It's a powerful
>>>>>> compiler with an interesting language, but it looks like the output
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> compiler can only be used with Adobe-owned proprietary software at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>
>>>>> As I mentioned above, I don't see this as a problem whatsoever. And
>>>>> even if *some* people have a problem with it, there is a huge
>>>>> committer list of people who obviously have zero problem with that
>>>>> fact. The Foundation is here to provide support to communities, rather
>>>>> than block them on philosophical rationales. (IMO :-) So if a
>>>>> community wants to build up around Apache Flex, then we do what we can
>>>>> to help them.
>>>> I've been using Flash for the past 8 years in projects, organized Flex
>>>> User Group meetings, co-organized events with Adobe. I have a good
>>>> understanding of what Flash, ActionScript and AIR are capable off, how
>>>> many people are using Flash, how useful it can be.
>>>>
>>>> But none of the companies offering RIA related products and players in
>>>> the past 7 years (Adobe, Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, to name the big ones)
>>>> has not been affected by strategy changes of the management, often
>>>> leaving developers and clients in positions which were less optimal.
>>>> (Adobe Flex 1.5 ->  2.0 changes, differences in Silverlight APIs with
>>>> major version upgrades, Sun/Oracle dumping JavaFX Script, Microsoft's
>>>> decision to favor HTML5 over Silverlight).
>>>>
>>>> Adobe decided to discontinue development of Flash Player for mobile
>>>> devices and smart TVs (it's a company decision, we have to respect
>>>> that, but it wasn't easy for large number of people to hear those
>>>> news). If they would decide to discontinue the desktop version of
>>>> Flash Player, wouldn't it be good if the community would have an
>>>> alternative runtime prepared already? I believe it is in the interest
>>>> of the Apache Flex community to have an alternative runtime for Flex
>>>> in the not-too-far future, and if Adobe would express support of that
>>>> goal , it would be very valuable.
>>>>
>>>> The proposal might have a sentence saying: "Adobe will provide the
>>>> Apache community with the technical information needed to develop
>>>> additional runtimes for Flex." Would that be acceptable?
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -g
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again for you comments!
>>>>
>>>> Raju
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Raju Bitter | Software Architect
>> cell: +49 (0) 176 322 011 96
>> fax: +49 (0) 8821 68 69 08 29
>> email: rajubitter@googlemail.com
>> Germany
>

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