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<1322444006.12858.YahooMailNeo@web160915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1322445865.25544.YahooMailNeo@web160906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Christian Grobmeier Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:44:08 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: concerns about high overhead in Apache incubator releases To: general@incubator.apache.org, Joe Schaefer Cc: Chris Douglas , "kafka-dev@incubator.apache.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:04 AM, Joe Schaefer wrot= e: > I suggest we discuss documentation work right here. It will be a welcome > change to discuss our work instead of simply our opinions. +1 I would like to suggest to adopt an existing release plan, change it to fit to incubator expectations and create a wikipage for it. Like: http://wiki.apache.org/logging-log4php/ReleaseProcedure This might serve as recommendation, which can be tweaked of course. Guess this will help people better to get started than 10k philosophy. Cheers > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Chris Douglas >> To: general@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer >> Cc: "kafka-dev@incubator.apache.org" >> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:01 PM >> Subject: Re: concerns about high overhead in Apache incubator releases >> >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Joe Schaefer >> wrote: >>> =C2=A0I did not see anyone say RTFM, did you? >> >> That's how I read Ross's account of the Rave project (mentor pointed >> to the docs, RM read them, monthly releases bloomed). I don't think >> that was an ungenerous reading, but characterizing it as RTFM may have >> misrepresented its tone. >> >>> =C2=A0Yes it's long and painful prose written by many different authors= , >>> =C2=A0but simply complaining about it isn't going to get us anywhere. >> We've >>> =C2=A0known about the problems for years now; what we need is for peopl= e >>> =C2=A0to step up, in a whine-free way, and collaborate with each other. >>> >>> =C2=A0Are you game? >> >> Sure, I'll offer to help with drafting. Where is a good place to >> coordinate that? -C >> >>> =C2=A0----- Original Message ----- >>>> =C2=A0From: Chris Douglas >>>> =C2=A0To: general@incubator.apache.org >>>> =C2=A0Cc: kafka-dev@incubator.apache.org >>>> =C2=A0Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:46 PM >>>> =C2=A0Subject: Re: concerns about high overhead in Apache incubator re= leases >>>> >>>> =C2=A0Ross is 100% in identifying mentors as critical to a smooth rele= ase. >>>> =C2=A0More specifically, mentors familiar with what a project is likel= y to >>>> =C2=A0face in an Incubator vote. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0I'm sorry to say that I was an AWOL mentor for the first 5 RCs. = I >>>> =C2=A0still wouldn't have anticipated the objections from the IPMC tha= t- >> as >>>> =C2=A0Jun points out- were true of every release. By way of illustrati= on, >>>> =C2=A0take the debate on source releases that spread outside of genera= l@ and >>>> =C2=A0into other foundation lists. It took over three days to get a ye= s/no >>>> =C2=A0answer from *anyone*, and while hundreds of words on why the ans= wer >>>> =C2=A0could be yes were written, the closest we got to a definitive an= swer >>>> =C2=A0on foundation policy was a link to something Roy said in 2009 on >>>> =C2=A0legal-discuss@. And none of that discussion is available to podl= ings! >>>> >>>> =C2=A0Even that didn't speak to our question. RC6 contained all the >> source >>>> =C2=A0and unit tests, but it also included artifacts of a successful b= uild. >>>> =C2=A0The discussion was focused on minimum requirements, while RC6 wa= s >>>> =C2=A0rejected (in part) for including too much. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0The incubator documentation on releases is over 10k words with a= t >>>> =C2=A0least 80 TODO items. So while I agree that mentors' familiarity >> with >>>> =C2=A0the process is critical to smooth releases, I reject the RTFM >>>> =C2=A0suggestion as trolling. Further, it's not policy when objections >> *not* >>>> =C2=A0in the documentation get added and cited ex post facto. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0In some of these threads, the Incubator is confused with an ASF >>>> =C2=A0project. This is incoherent given its size and composition. The >>>> =C2=A0Incubator is a curriculum, not a community. And if we're going t= o >>>> =C2=A0continue to use metaphors like "graduation" and >> "mentor", >>>> =C2=A0then the >>>> =C2=A0requirements for a release must 1) be stated crisply and succinc= tly 2) >>>> =C2=A0be separated from best practices, no matter how widely practiced= and >>>> =C2=A0highly regarded some of those procedures may be. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0As examples from recent release votes: a particular sequence of >>>> =C2=A0transformations in subversion for composing a release is not a >>>> =C2=A0requirement. Small tarballs are not a requirement. Correctly com= posing >>>> =C2=A0the LICENSE, DISCLAIMER, and NOTICE files are requirements. >>>> >>>> =C2=A0If I've learned one thing from trying to advise on a release, >> it's >>>> =C2=A0that I know a lot less than I thought I did. I might be an accep= table >>>> =C2=A0teaching assistant, but of the 100+ IPMC members, there are only= a >>>> =C2=A0handful of tenured members who can distinguish lore from canon. = I (and >>>> =C2=A0others, no doubt) would happily furnish pints to IPMC members wh= o can >>>> =C2=A0distill what already exists into a small set of rules, rather th= an >>>> =C2=A0augmenting the existing Leviadocs. -C >>>> >>>> =C2=A0On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Ross Gardler >>>> =C2=A0 wrote: >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0I sympathize with you're comments, however, I do want to = point >> out that >>>> =C2=A0the >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0problems are more to do with the Project committers and m= entors >> than the >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0process (although documentation can always be improved). >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0As evidence I submit the Apache Rave poddling. This proje= ct made >> its first >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0release within a couple of months of entering the incubat= or and >> has made a >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0release every month since (I've not checked the dates, bu= t I >> think this >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0statement is accurate). >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Rave achieved this because Ate Douma (mentor) pointed to = the >> appropriate >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0docs. Matt Franklin read and understood the docs and did = a >> release. Ate >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0watched and advised throughout the process. The first tre= kker took >> a couple >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0of cycles to get right. All sidewinder releases have been >>>> =C2=A0"simple". >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Please don't think I'm saying there is no value in your >> mail, there >>>> =C2=A0is. We >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0can certainly improve in the support we provide. To addre= ss your >> specific >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0points: >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A01. Your mentors are the example, if they are not guiding = you ask >> if anyone >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0here can help. >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A02. Different views of different people is difficult to re= solve >> (see Roberts >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0recent mail on the same topic). My advice is to understan= d the >> (admittedly >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0confusing) documentation. If that doesn't help ask on the >> appropriate >>>> =C2=A0list >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0(here if you don't know which list) >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A03. Clone or best mentors - sorry nothing better to sugges= t here >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A04. Get it right first time (mentors like Ate only let it = go to a >> vote if it >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0is ready, so 72 hours is called once only). Also know the= rules >> with >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0respect to release voting (see Joe's mail). >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Finally, and most importantly, help us improve the proces= s (as you >> are >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0doing with this mail). Given my responses above is there = anything >> concrete >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0you suggest we do to improve things (patches to docs seem= like an >> obvious >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0start - most of those docs are written by people who alre= ady do >> Apache >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0releases). >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Ross >>>>> >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and bre= vity. >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0On Nov 27, 2011 7:13 PM, "Jun Rao" >> >>>> =C2=A0wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Dear Apache members, >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Over the past 2 months, the Kafka Apache incubator proje= ct has >> been >>>> =C2=A0trying >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0to release its very first version in Apache. After 7 RCs= , we >> are still >>>> =C2=A0not >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0done. Part of this is because most of us are new to the = Apache >> release >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0process and are learning things along the way. However, = I >> think Apache >>>> =C2=A0can >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0do a better job in the incubating process to make releas= es >> much less >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0painful. In the following, I will summarize some of prob= lems >> that we >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0had experienced. This is not an accusation, nor is it >> personal. I just >>>> =C2=A0hope >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0that we can all learn from our experience so that Kafka = and >> other >>>> =C2=A0incubator >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0projects can release more smoothly in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A01. There is no good example to follow. >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0As a new incubator project, the natural thing for us to = do >> when it >>>> =C2=A0comes to >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0releasing our code is to follow what other Apache projec= ts do. >> However, >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0more than once, the feedback that we got is that those a= re not >> good >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0examples to follow. It seems that those "bad" >> examples are >>>> =C2=A0not isolated >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0cases. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A02. Different Apache members have different interpretatio= ns of >> the same >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0rule. >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0It seems that there is no consensus on some of the basic= rules >> even >>>> =C2=A0among >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Apache members. For example, what constitutes a source >> distribution and >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0what should be put in the NOTICE file? Since all it take= s is >> one >>>> =C2=A0negative >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0vote to block a release, this increases the turnover rat= e of >> RCs. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A03. Not enough constructive and comprehensive suggestions= . >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Some of the issues that are present in Kafka RC7 exist i= n RC1. >> Those >>>> =C2=A0issues >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0could have been resolved much earlier had there been mor= e >> constructive >>>> =C2=A0and >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0comprehensive feedbacks from early on. Instead, often, t= he >> feedback >>>> =C2=A0just >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0points out the violation of one or two issues that are e= nough >> to block >>>> =C2=A0a >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0release. People like Ant Edler have made some constructi= ve >> suggestions >>>> =C2=A0and >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0we really appreciate that. We could use more suggestions= like >> that. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A04. Not enough flexibility in applying the rules. >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Some of the rules don't make common sense. For example, = if >> we >>>> =C2=A0publish a new >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0RC that simply fixes a few lines in NOTICE/LICENSE. We a= re >> still >>>> =C2=A0required >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0to go through a full 3-day vote in Kafka and another ful= l >> 3-day vote in >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Apache general. This, coupled with the high turnover rat= e of >> RCs, can >>>> =C2=A0delay >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0the release for a significant long time. Both Chris Doug= las >> and Ant >>>> =C2=A0Edler >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0wanted to relax the rule slightly to help us speed thing= s up. >> However, >>>> =C2=A0not >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0every Apache member tolerates such flexibility. Again, a= ll it >> takes is >>>> =C2=A0just >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0one vote to kill a release. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0To summarize, our experience of releasing in Apache has = not >> been very >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0pleasant so far. I am not sure if our experience is the >> exception or >>>> =C2=A0the >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0norm among incubator projects. In any case, I sincerely = hope >> that at >>>> =C2=A0least >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0some of those concerns can be addressed in Apache to mak= e the >> release >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0process more enjoyable, especially for new comers. >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0Jun >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> =C2=A0----------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >>>> =C2=A0To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org >>>> =C2=A0For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.o= rg >>>> >>> >>> =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------------------------= ---- >>> =C2=A0To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org >>> =C2=A0For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.or= g >>> >>> >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org > --=20 http://www.grobmeier.de https://www.timeandbill.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org