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From Robert Burrell Donkin <>
Subject Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
Date Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:14:23 GMT
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> <> wrote:
>>> +1
>>> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
>> Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
>> and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
>> energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
>> supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
> The process is not smooth, thats why more rules are currently in
> discussion. Supervising has already failed in some projects. Adding
> these new rules do not necessary mean that supervising is better;
> actually I doubt (and have said so).


> Have not seen a pruning recently. My feeling is we are adding more and
> more rules to a huge rule framework. And it feels always the same
> people are adding these rules and no one can stop them (not meant as
> an insult).

It's easy to stop: just start a VOTE or -1 a documentation commit

For example, the issue with the trademark check list item could be
dealt with either by an effort to provide detailed guidance or by
dropping the requirement from the check list by telling the board that
the Incubator expects the brand team to approve names for podlings. If
you have a strong opinion that we should just drop the requirement,
jump into the thread.

> This is what frustrates me very much and will prevent me
> actually to waste more energy in rules/politics discussions.

Then focus your energy on doing, not discussing. Find one example
which illustrates your criticism and prune it.

> I have no suggestions how to do better at the moment. But adding more
> and more rules cannot be the solution. I mean this is no fun. We are
> acting like a company more and more. The time you need to understand,
> teach and develop this rules are not to underestimate. We even have a
> code of conduct. That all is no prime time stuff anymore and no fun.
> And in my world, Open Source is not only a business model, it is fun
> at first place. And this means, less but efficient rules.

Rules based systems fail to scale


> Cheers,
> Christian
> who is very frustrated at the recent developments on the ASF.

Then jump in and get involved with improving stuff :-)


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