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From ant elder <ant.el...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Does Apache Have a 'Rule' Problem, or does the Incubator sometimes just make it look that way?
Date Sun, 27 Nov 2011 09:38:05 GMT
On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
<robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Christian Grobmeier
> <grobmeier@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin
>> <robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> +1
>>>> And while we are at it, reduce Roles and Rules to a minimum.
>>>
>>> Pruning is always useful but when the Incubator ran with fewer rules
>>> and roles, the process ran much less smoothly which took much more
>>> energy to supervise. I'm not sure that there's enough energy to
>>> supervise so many projects without a smooth process.
>>
>> The process is not smooth, thats why more rules are currently in
>> discussion. Supervising has already failed in some projects. Adding
>> these new rules do not necessary mean that supervising is better;
>> actually I doubt (and have said so).
>
> +1
>
>> Have not seen a pruning recently. My feeling is we are adding more and
>> more rules to a huge rule framework. And it feels always the same
>> people are adding these rules and no one can stop them (not meant as
>> an insult).
>
> It's easy to stop: just start a VOTE or -1 a documentation commit
>
> For example, the issue with the trademark check list item could be
> dealt with either by an effort to provide detailed guidance or by
> dropping the requirement from the check list by telling the board that
> the Incubator expects the brand team to approve names for podlings. If
> you have a strong opinion that we should just drop the requirement,
> jump into the thread.
>
>> This is what frustrates me very much and will prevent me
>> actually to waste more energy in rules/politics discussions.
>
> Then focus your energy on doing, not discussing. Find one example
> which illustrates your criticism and prune it.
>
>> I have no suggestions how to do better at the moment. But adding more
>> and more rules cannot be the solution. I mean this is no fun. We are
>> acting like a company more and more. The time you need to understand,
>> teach and develop this rules are not to underestimate. We even have a
>> code of conduct. That all is no prime time stuff anymore and no fun.
>> And in my world, Open Source is not only a business model, it is fun
>> at first place. And this means, less but efficient rules.
>
> Rules based systems fail to scale
>
> <snip>
>
>> Cheers,
>> Christian
>> who is very frustrated at the recent developments on the ASF.
>
> Then jump in and get involved with improving stuff :-)
>
> Robert
>

Yeah I agree with Robert though I do acknowledge that it can be really
hard to get some things changed and you may need a thick skin and lots
of perseverance. But lets try to demonstrate its possible - Christian
tell us three things you'd like changed and we'll pick one and try to
fix it right here right now just to show it can be done.

   ...ant

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