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From: Daniel Kulp <dkulp@apache.org>
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Cc: Doug Meil <doug.meil@explorysmedical.com>
Subject: Re: Accumulo incubator proposal: Statement of Concern
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 11:51:49 -0400
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Doug,

As Greg and others have pointed out, none of this really matters, but since, 
you did ask for some examples, I can think of two immediately:

1) As Dim's pointed out, when CXF entered the incubator, it obviously 
conflicted directly with Axis2.   Many ideas were the same.   Many of the 
goals were the same.  Etc...  The community was different.   There WERE forks 
of some Apache WebServices things into CXF (a fork of Neethi being the primary 
one).    In the long run, things have worked out quite well with both Axis2 
and CXF thriving despite both being written in Java and with likely a 90% 
overlap in target problems they are trying to solve.     The communities have 
started working together on some of the underlying libs (example: ideas from 
the fork of Neethi in CXF was pushed into ws to become Neethi 3.0 which they 
now both use, but it took 4 years to get there), but the bulk of the 
communities are separate.    


2) Wink - when Wink entered the incubator, one of the proposed blocks of code 
in the grant was a direct fork (with many changes) of the CXF JAX-RS 
implementation.   They ended up going a different direction, but one of the 
original code bases was a direct fork of another Apache project.     They've 
figured out their niche, the CXF JAX-RS implementation has figure out it's 
place and both are used.


So basically, as a bunch of folks have been saying, in many cases, a fork or a 
new community duplicating some ideas in a new (or even the same) way is NOT a 
bad thing.     The incubator is here to foster new communities and help them 
succeed and find their own place in the Apache ecosystem.   If that 
competes/overlaps with another Apache project, SO WHAT.   Each community can 
find their own niche and own solutions.   Users can go to whichever solves 
their problems better.

Anyway, you asked for examples, there are the two that popped into my head 
immediately.   

Dan


On Monday, September 12, 2011 10:34:53 PM Doug Meil wrote:
> Hi there-
> 
> I thought the email chain prompted by my questions had a gracious and
> productive ending several days ago, but if you would like to start this up
> again, ok.
> 
> re:  "turf is being infringed"
> 
> It's funny that you said that, because according to the other emails on
> Accumulo in the past week there are a couple thousand lines of HBase code
> in Accumulo, and core functionality at that (e.g., block cache).  Even
> Incubator supporters of Accumulo would admit that's a little unusual in
> the ASF, and I believe they've said so in other threads I've seen.
> 
> As was pointed out, HBase copied the Hadoop RPC for it's own purpose, but
> HBase wasn't trying to be another RPC framework - it was trying to be
> Hbase - something Hadoop was not.
> 
> I'm not making a legal argument here because the ASF code license is free
> beer/speech, etc.  It's just that Accumulo is, in a very real sense,
> actually standing on a part of HBase.
> 
> If there are other examples of this in Apache I'd be curious to know what
> they are.  That's not a sarcastic request... seriously, I'd like to know
> because it would be worth documenting as case studies for other projects.
> 
> 
> re:  "overlap"
> 
> This is the "there are multiple webservers in ASF" counter-argument -
> except that ones that exist are in two different languages (Apache WS and
> Tomcat).  The point I made in my email is that if a 3rd webserver showed
> up that was written in Java that copied a couple thousand lines of code
> from Tomcat, I would hope somebody would ask why.  I thought I had some
> agreements from some folks on this thread, but you feel differently so
> we're going to have to disagree.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Doug
> 
> On 9/12/11 8:56 PM, "Noel J. Bergman" <noel@devtech.com> wrote:
> >Doug Meil wrote:
> >> I think that the ASF and ASF incubator leadership should consider it a
> >> priority to foster such communication.
> >
> >We do.  I, in particular, tend to do it --- and have on occassion been
> >criticized for trying to foster project collaboration and/or merger.
> >
> >BUT ...
> >
> >The Incubator does not pick winners, exclude projects based on overlap
> >with
> >others, or deny a community a chance just because some other project (ASF
> >or
> >otherwise) feels that their turf is being infringed.  We have been very
> >consistent on this issue.
> >
> >Your best move is to open talks with the Accumulo community, and see what
> >options for collaboration and/or merger exist as it proceeds.
> >
> >As for some of the other comments, Accumulo will be held to the same
> >standards as every other project, and will be required to exhibit The
> >Apache
> >Way.
> >
> >	--- Noel
> >
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-- 
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://dankulp.com/blog
Talend - http://www.talend.com

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