Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org
Received-SPF: pass (nike.apache.org: domain of simos.lists@googlemail.com
 designates 209.85.216.47 as permitted sender)
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws;
        d=googlemail.com; s=gamma;
        h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to
         :content-type;
        b=sNuyKlG3IICNcIHgbL24twLKygrYVdgoKq2OMcCbmnGKokg6tH0ZnVi8seXVPhrgGZ
         TbD60IuEMkr6SYMTgo/6o6gELqBZ6WqE1Dcofmiy6D6Vaa8JH9OSkVqYbPupdrC+UTY5
         Ir5qGAcntEf1MYMmfROSO25JIV50qNs5CvsSc=
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <BANLkTikDNJmEtiT1Wbp66opjw-Q_5SDmgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BANLkTikqSCD09xUEBZW-bsAWHUPgpr51iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <BANLkTikDNJmEtiT1Wbp66opjw-Q_5SDmgw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Simos Xenitellis <simos.lists@googlemail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 13:23:42 +0300
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=P=E+uQXmyFAAuwW1R06nX_FKEnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Accept OpenOffice.org for incubation
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Christian Grobmeier
<grobmeier@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ketih,
>
>> I think Italo is incorrect saying voting "no" would be a defeat for
>> free software. It is an honest mistake. People don't know what else
>> could happen, because alternatives are not being discussed.
>
> They have been discussed. Even at this list. We have discussed to say
> "no" to OOo at the ASF. We have discussed collaborations. There were
> even some more exotic ideas on this proposal.
>

The part about the ASF undertaking only a reference implementation for
the ODF format
was not discussed. This would probably make the Free Software
Foundation (FSF) happy.

The position of the FSF at http://www.fsf.org/news/openoffice-apache-libreoffice

>> I have
>> noticed many think no other plans are possible. This forces people to
>> vote "yes".
>
> Sorry, but how can you know? Did you speak with everybody? DId you get
> private messages from some folks asking you for help? Are you a
> psychologist and know about group dynamics?
>

Now that you mention it; the voting started at time (7.02pm local time).
Benson Margulies voted at 7.03pm.
You voted at 7.05pm.

Is the voting start time pre-announced?

>
>> I think LibreOffice people are quiet for various reasons:
>> 1. Voting yes is seen as being helpful and friendly, but voting no is
>> seen as unhelpful.
>
...
>
>> 3. These people are thrown into this chaos only months into their
>> existence. Should they be unfriendly to a bad idea? This is not
>> something that many have had to deal with frequently before. None were
>> likely a part of the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD fiasco, etc.
>
> Come on. Are you serious?
> We are speaking of adults.
>

You come off as patronizing.

>> 4. It is rude not to retract a plan that many have objections to.
>> Should they compound it with their own rudeness?
>
> It is how democracy usually works. You have X pro, Y contra,
> afterwards you have a decision. Usually some complain about it
> afterwards.
>

The case here is that the proposed Apache OpenOffice.org plans to
attract the greater
OOo community, and this community is largely unaware of the voting that takes
place in this incubator mailing list.

I only found out I could vote from replies in the actual voting.

...
>
>> The mistake is there could be a silent majority of objectors.
>
> Yes there could. A worm live in the apple. There is a silent majority
> against car driving. This does not lead to anywhere.
>

Unlike other Apache projects, AOOo has the aspirations for a wide
community project.
Considering that any person who is part of the OOo/LO community is affected,
I would expect a call to the community that explains what's going on
and invite them to vote.

Simos

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org