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From: Christian Grobmeier <grobmeier@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 13:07:23 +0200
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=Kcdrz_+oztF1J34-kaCTFErfw=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Accept OpenOffice.org for incubation
To: general@incubator.apache.org
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>>> I think Italo is incorrect saying voting "no" would be a defeat for
>>> free software. It is an honest mistake. People don't know what else
>>> could happen, because alternatives are not being discussed.
>>
>> They have been discussed. Even at this list. We have discussed to say
>> "no" to OOo at the ASF. We have discussed collaborations. There were
>> even some more exotic ideas on this proposal.
>>
> The part about the ASF undertaking only a reference implementation for
> the ODF format
> was not discussed. This would probably make the Free Software
> Foundation (FSF) happy.

Ross answered that already.

> The position of the FSF at http://www.fsf.org/news/openoffice-apache-libreoffice

Thanks, I know that link and cannot agree to everything written there.

>> Sorry, but how can you know? Did you speak with everybody? DId you get
>> private messages from some folks asking you for help? Are you a
>> psychologist and know about group dynamics?
>>
> Now that you mention it; the voting started at time (7.02pm local time).
> Benson Margulies voted at 7.03pm.
> You voted at 7.05pm.
>
> Is the voting start time pre-announced?

The vote was pre announced by Sam on thursday. It was me who suggested
to vote on Friday i think on monday.
The reason I could vote so quickly is, I am in the office today.

Is a quick reaction time a problem? What have I mentioned which leads
to your reaction?


>>> 3. These people are thrown into this chaos only months into their
>>> existence. Should they be unfriendly to a bad idea? This is not
>>> something that many have had to deal with frequently before. None were
>>> likely a part of the Blu-Ray / HD-DVD fiasco, etc.
>>
>> Come on. Are you serious?
>> We are speaking of adults.
>>
> You come off as patronizing.

My dictionary did not help me to identify exactly what you wanted to
express here and my english is not good enough (as you probably have
noticed already).

But I strongly believe that everybody has a voice to raise. If they
don't like an idea, they can tell it.
What is the argument of #3? Yes, probably its chaos, but that is life.


>>> 4. It is rude not to retract a plan that many have objections to.
>>> Should they compound it with their own rudeness?
>>
>> It is how democracy usually works. You have X pro, Y contra,
>> afterwards you have a decision. Usually some complain about it
>> afterwards.
>>
>
> The case here is that the proposed Apache OpenOffice.org plans to
> attract the greater
> OOo community, and this community is largely unaware of the voting that takes
> place in this incubator mailing list.
>
> I only found out I could vote from replies in the actual voting.

Actually you can express your opinion (non binding). The decision is
being made by the PMC (binding).
Here is the text: http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles

A bit below is noted how voting works.

I expect people, who want to contribute to the ASF to read this document.

You are right, is not mentioned explicit that you can cast a vote
yourself. You could have guessed so, when reading the paragraph around
"Developer".

But the vote is open for 72h. Those who are interested and look at the
votes, can still vote yes or no.

There was enough time to ask about the process at the incubator
mailinglist. There were questions, and all were answered.


>>> The mistake is there could be a silent majority of objectors.
>>
>> Yes there could. A worm live in the apple. There is a silent majority
>> against car driving. This does not lead to anywhere.
>>
>
> Unlike other Apache projects, AOOo has the aspirations for a wide
> community project.
> Considering that any person who is part of the OOo/LO community is affected,
> I would expect a call to the community that explains what's going on
> and invite them to vote.

As far as I know there Jim tried to involve all related parties into
the discussion. A call to the community to participate the discussion
has happened to my knowledge. That said I think every interested
person has meanwhile subscribed to this list and could express his
opinion, if he wants. A vote from somebody who didn't read the
discussions is not really reasonable.

Really, its easy to complain afterwards. This event has gone through
the press. Thousands of blogposts have been published. Hundreds of
e-mails were written. What else can one do?


>
> Simos
>
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-- 
http://www.grobmeier.de

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