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From Ralph Goers <ralph.go...@dslextreme.com>
Subject Re: OpenOffice: were are we now?
Date Mon, 06 Jun 2011 06:49:39 GMT

On Jun 5, 2011, at 11:34 PM, Phil Steitz wrote:

> On 6/5/11 11:02 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>> On 6/6/2011 12:47 AM, Phil Steitz wrote:
>>> On 6/5/11 10:16 PM, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>>>> ASF members wish to devote considerable time and energy to this
>>>> project, so exactly who the hell are you to decide what they should
>>>> and shouldn't devote that time and energy to?
>>> I am just a volunteer who has seen the ASF struggle with
>>> growth-related issues for several years now.  I think it is a fair
>>> question to ask whether we should think about different / more
>>> selective criteria for entrance to the incubator.  Sorry if asking
>>> that question offends you.
>> To clarify this, because we have so many guests and observers trying
>> to figure out the ASF...
>> 
>> Sufficient numbers of board members, ASF members and even incubator
>> team members have signed up as mentors.
>> 
>> But more to the point, the central premise of the ASF is to facilitate
>> developers to scratch their own itch.  If improving particular processes,
>> code or documentation interests you, by all means, do it.  If some part
>> of the code holds no interest to you, let someone else.  And if you come
>> to the ASF (even as a user) complaining about a particular piece of code,
>> bring a patch, not a complaint, if you "expect" it to be fixed.
>> 
>> The mentor list suggests to me that there are enough volunteers for
>> this particular itch to accept it for graduation.  Phil, you are not
>> responsible and should not feel responsible to follow the activities of
>> this project if it truly isn't your itch.
> 
> Sorry, Bill, but as an ASF member I am in fact responsible for
> everything that the foundation does, including what we decide to
> accept into the Incubator.  Of course, I am just one member, and we
> make these decisions by consensus.  If the consensus is to accept
> this podling, I will welcome the project and accept the
> responsibility that we all will share having made that decision.

Phil, I understand what your concern is but I just don't see a way to prevent "exploitation"
other than what we already do. If you look at the Flume proposal made just a couple of days
prior to this you will notice that most of the initial committers have the same employer.
Is this exploitation? I don't think so. You probably don't either since you made no comment
to that effect.  Would it be exploitation if IBM convinced Oracle to propose it here and then
provided no developers to work on the project but just used the source? Probably, but thousands
of companies do that with all of our software.  

I just don't see how you can prevent what you are trying to without violating the spirit of
what Apache is here for. 

>> To address your concern, we should raise this issue to the board and
>> set a policy of accepting no further projects, if your opinion is shared
>> by the rest of the incubator PMC. 
> 
> I did not suggest that we stop accepting projects.  Read the post. 
> I suggested that we try to come up with some principles governing
> what we accept into the incubator.

If you can come up with some I'd happily discuss them with you. I don't think holding this
proposal hostage to that is fair primarily because I don't have a lot of confidence the principals
would exclude this project from entering.  If you've read my previous posts you will see the
principals I use when I vote.

> 
>> That concern need not be applied on
>> a project-by-project basis (except to ensure there are sufficient number
>> of interested mentors).
> Whatever principles we end up agreeing on should be applied to all
> candidate podlings.  If just having enough mentors willing to sign
> up were sufficient, there would be no need for a vote of the IPMC.  

I agree with that and that is precisely what I do except that they are my own not a "standard
set". Apparently, I just don't use the same criteria you do. Frankly, that is OK by me.

Ralph


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