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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2010 18:28:37 +0100
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Thilo_G=F6tz?= <twgoetz@gmx.de>
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To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Basing Apache releases on releases from incubating projects
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Hi Chris,

On 12/1/2010 18:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote:
> Hi Thilo,
> 
>>>
>>> I hear ya, and I believe you have way more experience in this particular area than I do. I'm just saying that it would be nice if we could eat our own dog food in this particular accord, otherwise, what's the Incubator other than an Apache-branded area of code that's subject to *even stricter* guises. If you what you say is true, then it would seem to me that projects would benefit then from going to Google Code first, saying they are ASLv2 over there, and then being included over here in Apache projects (in source or binary form) -- they wouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny that our Incubator podlings are.
>>
>> Oh but they are.  I'm a committer on the new OpenNLP incubator
>> project that's just starting up.  It's Apache licensed, but that
>> saves us nothing.  
> 
> I wouldn't agree with that, actually. It saves you a ton. Postulated scenario:
> 
> You guys publish SNAPSHOT (unreleased JAR of OpenNLP) based on current source code available as downstream dependency at some Maven consumable site.
> I'm over here in Apache project X. 
> I update my Apache project X to consume your SNAPSHOT OpenNLP jar from Google Code.
> 
> That's just an example of where it might save you (and me from Apache project X that wants to depend on your ASLv2 licensed, unreleased Google Code whiz bang feature Y).

Is it just me, or have we come full circle ;-)

> 
> 
>> We're doing a code grant, ICLAs from all current
>> and previous contributors, etc etc, the whole nine yards.  The
>> fact that the code is already under the Apache license makes hardly
>> any difference.
> 
> Yep I've had to do this myself on several podlings. That's an IP issue more than anything else and just cleaner all around since you guys are doing a code drop over here at Apache, no?
> 
> That said, IP is a little bit of a different beast (as are SGA or ICLA) than what I'm getting at. Basically what I'm saying is that if we've got "ASF Incubator Podlings", that is, Apache branded code that isn't fully endorsed yet here at Apache yes, but that is *here at Apache*, then there should be some easier mechanism than "making a release" to include that good work going on in the ASF Incubator. Releases do not occur often enough in my experience to make it the gate to include an Incubator podling's code that is itself ASLv2 licensed. There should be an easier way (read: reward) for projects coming over here and being willing to do it our way, from the start.

But it's all about IP.  We're releasing under the Apache
license.  That license makes some pretty strong claims
about the code.  The ASF needs to be able to defend these
claims in a court of law, so that's not a minor thing.  If
some guys somewhere distribute their code under the Apache
license but never really think about what that means, well,
that's their problem.

--Thilo

> 
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D.
> Senior Computer Scientist
> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA
> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246
> Email: chris.a.mattmann@nasa.gov
> WWW:   http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department
> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
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