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From Yeliz Eseryel <u.y.eser...@rug.nl>
Subject Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Date Wed, 24 Nov 2010 15:25:17 GMT
I like your view on this.
I hope things are going well?
I now work in Groningen, the Netherlands.
Yeliz.

On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Glen Daniels <glen@thoughtcraft.com> wrote:
> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
>
> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
> go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication.  Quick
> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
> more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion.  Simple misunderstandings
> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days.  And the sense
> of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
> more so on a phone call.  These things all help move a project forward and
> keep communities together.
>
> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug.  IMO,
> we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
> or not to do it at all.
>
> Thanks,
> --Glen
>
> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
>> breathing room on this subject.
>>
>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
>> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>>
>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>>
>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
>> of someone off-time-zone.
>>
>> --benson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>>
>>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate
during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers
is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>>
>>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>>
>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>>
>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>>
>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>>
>>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or
impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>>
>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>>
>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>>
>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>>
>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously
distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>>
>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>>> which is...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list
for
>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -g
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>>> <craig.russell@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested
project
>>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the
call
>>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the
project
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my
email
>>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into
email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable
and
>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring
folks to
>>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than
reading a
>>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general
list
>>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>>> <nour.mohammad@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>>> <the.malkolm@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere.
I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people
involved :).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>>> <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks
for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dkhaywood@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and
I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice,
actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I
didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo
working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in
about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves
are on the
>>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also
recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded
ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is
distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway,
I've just
>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private.
(If you
>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call
like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance
purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call
- Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if
it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated,
it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition
2.0 User
>>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance
you must keep
>>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call
yourself a
>>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing
anything less
>>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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