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From Mark Struberg <strub...@yahoo.de>
Subject Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Date Mon, 22 Nov 2010 15:32:02 GMT
Thanks Benson, +1. 
Jim, if you look at the isis-dev list, then you will find a mail which predates the general@i.a.o
post [1] and where the mentors expressed the the same concerns and made clear what must _not_
happen on such a jit communication but instead find it's way to the mailing list. 
So I have the good faith that all the involved people got the idea behind it in the meantime.


txs and LieGrue,
strub

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/isis-dev@incubator.apache.org/msg00416.html

--- On Mon, 11/22/10, Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Benson Margulies <bimargulies@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 3:16 PM
> I am nothing if not chronically
> disingenuous.
> 
> My first concern in responding here is a process concern.
> As far as I
> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to
> forbid the use
> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a
> vote, the use
> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the
> mentors to
> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark
> aside, my
> primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've
> registered
> these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in
> the
> discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this
> should be
> enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish
> that they
> would open another thread in which they formally propose to
> impose
> limits on the use of these technologies.
> 
> My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's.
> The point of
> the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs
> as soon as
> possible. Real Apache projects use real-time
> communications, within
> the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's
> policies. _Use_ of
> these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit.
> _Misuse_ is. So
> podlings should start using it while they are podlings and
> can be
> supervised.
> 
> Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first
> two weeks?'
> 
> Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal
> opinion, that
> the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the
> close
> collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to
> make that go
> away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude
> people
> based on time zone or working style, but it might also
> allow new
> people who are not part of the pre-existing founding
> community to get
> into the thick of things more quickly.
> 
> As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some
> risk here
> that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that
> will need
> to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me
> out to dry
> here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I
> hear you
> that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have
> community-management
> risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse
> them.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> > Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early...
> Comparing the
> > behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings
> seems
> > disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile
> drivers drive
> > with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you
> encourage or
> > allow those with learner's permits to do?
> >
> >
> > On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and
> pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
> >>
> >> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the
> community, I think people often
> >> go too far in downplaying the benefits of
> real-time communication.  Quick
> >> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be
> thought through in a much
> >> more effective way than asynchronous emails,
> without the need to constantly
> >> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion.
>  Simple misunderstandings
> >> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of
> hours or days.  And the sense
> >> of getting to know someone is often subjectively
> deeper in chat, and much
> >> more so on a phone call.  These things all help
> move a project forward and
> >> keep communities together.
> >>
> >> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid
> "real-time BAD (well,
> >> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at
> least come across that way on
> >> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other
> side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> >> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated
> into a project, can provide
> >> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't
> shuffled under the rug.  IMO,
> >> we should be messaging about how to do it well if
> it's desired, not whether
> >> or not to do it at all.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --Glen
> >>
> >> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> >>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone
> to give them a little
> >>> breathing room on this subject.
> >>>
> >>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC
> channels. These have very
> >>> closely related risks to open communities.
> Many TLPs in good standing
> >>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
> >>>
> >>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this
> thread are pointless.
> >>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job
> of us mentors to help
> >>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC,
> meetups, co-workers, and
> >>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral
> commission, which works
> >>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
> >>>
> >>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as
> a mentor, to _avoid_
> >>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a
> perspective comparable to that
> >>> of someone off-time-zone.
> >>>
> >>> --benson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski
> <jim@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will
> exclude some people; it's just the
> >>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that
> timezone either will not be
> >>>> able to attend or will need to go out of
> their way to attend. As
> >>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise
> large groups of people,
> >>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the
> place" to discuss ISIS.
> >>>>
> >>>> Your generic comment about "individuals
> like to communicate during
> >>>> long & lonely nights in front of the
> keyboard" is also off the mark
> >>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all.
> Again, this sends a signal that
> >>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to
> fall into that group. Not
> >>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried
> Goeschl wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> open source projects are done by
> individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long
> & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting
> the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread
> around the globe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if the ISIS
> developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on
> the dev list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested
> party (apart from troll feeding)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is
> circumvented
> >>>>>
> >>>>> than I don't see any good reason why
> someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to
> organize such a "come together".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to
> organize the meeting
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a
> dozen developers on Skype
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few
> questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted
> by my two daughters on my lap)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
> >>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg
> Stein wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't
> be necessary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong
> for what I think needs to be done,
> >>>>>> which is...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
> >>>>>>> discussion points back to the
> list, along with any recommendations.
> >>>>>>> The list can then sort through
> it and make decisions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript
> but a list of topics and discussion
> >>>>>> points which continue on list.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We have off-list discussions
> all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> >>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We
> just bring the discussion onto the list for
> >>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody
> present. Skype concalls are no different
> >>>>>>> than these other forums.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> -g
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18,
> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>> <craig.russell@oracle.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> My $0.02:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The business of Apache is
> conducted on email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's fine to have a
> periodic conference call among interested project
> >>>>>>>> participants, as long as
> (my list, not normative):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no project or community
> member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
> >>>>>>>> information only to a
> private list)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no decisions are made
> during the call
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> all topics discussed are
> subsequently posted via email to the project
> >>>>>>>> members
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript
> is interesting but doesn't pass my email
> >>>>>>>> test. So
> >>>>>>>> I'd have to say that
> someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29
> AM, James Carman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know about
> this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> >>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't
> know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> >>>>>>>>> watch a video or
> listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> >>>>>>>>> transcript is probably
> not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> >>>>>>>>> to see what others
> have to say.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010
> at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> >>>>>>>>> <nour.mohammad@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Good idea
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype
> monthly meeting.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19,
> 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> >>>>>>>>>> <the.malkolm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At least it
> makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain
> this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is
> good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov
> 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
> >>>>>>>>>>> <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very
> useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> monthly
> similar would be good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov
> 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dkhaywood@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First
> off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to
> read the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> transcript
> on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> while I
> was demo'ing).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
> course,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> after
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the call
> finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> At any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the
> details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> "SmokeTest"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> page on
> the wiki [1].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Third,
> per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph,
> though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> recorded
> it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> across
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox
> account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed
> there, contact me directly).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
> We
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> could
> perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On
> 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> Dan,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> captured, a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> app or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> machine.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be
> able to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> associate voices with the emails.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Kevin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
> >>>>>>>>>> Author of
> (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
> >>>>>>>>>> Guide)
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> >>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> >>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>>> "Life is like
> riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> >>>>>>>>>> moving"
> >>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean
> code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> >>>>>>>>>> professional.
> There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> >>>>>>>>>> than your best."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A
> Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay
> foolish."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
> e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>> For additional
> commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands,
> e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> 
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> 


      

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