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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:37:20 -0400
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-U_=7i_czeyd3hc+7QHxHQUpENqG2Acc_AnZ=@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: an experiment
From: Greg Stein <gstein@gmail.com>
To: general@incubator.apache.org
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On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 21:30, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com> wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote:
>...
>> but the busy-bodies and rules pedants got all in our face.
>
> I read that thread, and as I commented on private@, I thought that it cou=
ld
> have been handled better.

I certainly could have handled it better. But that thread is
*indicative* of the problem. We've pointed out a several now: two with
Subversion, one with OODT.

If that isn't enough for you, then you need to wake up to the pattern.

>> Every message that I've seen from you today, Noel, is "gee. everything
>> is operating just fine. just like it should. oversight is everything,
>> and we need to do that, so I'm not going to listen to any suggestion
>> of fixing anything or restructuring anything."
>
> Then you need to re-read them. =A0Did you miss the several points where I=
 said
> that if someone isn't participating in a given project then unless they h=
ave
> one of a few issues of substance they should either actively become part =
of
> the community or butt out?

Say it all you want, but that isn't how people operate here. Simple fact.

If you want to fix it, then *DO* something rather than speak about it.

> And did you miss my request to the Board for their input on the issue of
> whether or not the PMC has to vote on new Committers? =A0Claiming that I'=
m not
> listening or open is, frankly, insulting.

I saw that, and I saw Joe's request that you mischaracterized him, and
then you brushed him off.

Oh yes, I *am* tracking all this. Very closely.

>> The Incubator is a broken process. Everybody hates it. Everybody wants t=
o
> get out of it.
>
> That is not the message that we get from most participants, but if that i=
s
> the case, then let's fix it.

Who is "we"?? I'm part of the IPMC, so I'm part of that "we". Most of
the feedback that I ever hear is not supportive.

Might be interesting to run a poll. Get some real numbers. "Have you
been through Incubation? Was it a positive experience?"

>> Subversion was fortunate in that we had enough support to bully our way
> through, to route
>> around damage
>
> Such as? =A0Let's be concrete and constructive, identify the specific pro=
blems
> and address them.

I've already told you. Disinterested third parties touting rules and
patterns that were NOT part of the Apache Way, but were most
definitely anti-Subversion-community. Certainly they had some
*commonality* around Apache projects, but were in no way a required
part of a collaborative, community-driven development process. They
were just "different", so these third parties got in our face. Because
they *could*. The Incubator supports the concept of random drive-bys
from disinterested third parties.

-g

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