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From "Noel J. Bergman" <>
Subject RE: an experiment
Date Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:29:39 GMT
Greg Stein wrote:

> > I read that thread, and as I commented on private@, I thought that it
> > have been handled better.

> I certainly could have handled it better.

I didn't mean by YOU.  See my reply on private@ before jumping to that

> But that thread is *indicative* of the problem. We've pointed out a
several now: two with
> Subversion, one with OODT.

OK.  So let's address it.

> > Did you miss the several points where I said that if someone isn't
> > in a given project then unless they have one of a few issues of
substance they
> > should either actively become part of the community or butt out?

> Say it all you want, but that isn't how people operate here. Simple fact.
> If you want to fix it, then *DO* something rather than speak about it.

Fine.  What would you suggest?  And that includes your proposal, which I do
consider interesting.  But consider, too, Leif's issue that their biggest
problem was the opposite: *getting* the 3 necessary votes.  So lets resolve
this in a more general fashion than TLP level partitioning.

> > And did you miss my request to the Board for their input on the issue of
> > whether or not the PMC has to vote on new Committers?  Claiming that I'm
> > listening or open is, frankly, insulting.

> I saw that, and I saw Joe's request that you mischaracterized him, and
> then you brushed him off.

I didn't brush Joe off.  I went back at the same time and replied on this
list in the related thread, which is where the actual details had been
posted, rather than in the abstract on board@.  See my reply to CLR for

>>> The Incubator is a broken process. Everybody hates it. Everybody wants
>>> get out of it.

>> That is not the message that we get from most participants, but if that
>> the case, then let's fix it.

> Who is "we"?? I'm part of the IPMC, so I'm part of that "we". Most of
> the feedback that I ever hear is not supportive.

We is the PMC as a whole, general@, private@.  But, sure, let's follow
through on your suggestion and run a poll.  Lets find out if things are
going well, what the problems are, how widespread or isolated they are, and
make the effort to resolve them.  As I said ...

> > Let's be concrete and constructive, identify the specific problems
> > and address them.

> I've already told you. Disinterested third parties touting rules and
> patterns that were NOT part of the Apache Way, but were most
> definitely anti-Subversion-community. Certainly they had some
> *commonality* around Apache projects, but were in no way a required
> part of a collaborative, community-driven development process.  They
> were just "different"

> The Incubator supports the concept of random drive-bys
> from disinterested third parties.

A bit harsh to call them disinterested.  :-)

OK, to be clear, what I'm reading from you, Justin and others, is that this
is *the* problem you want to resolve.

	--- Noel

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