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From Joe Schaefer <>
Subject Re: Radical revamp (was: an experiment)
Date Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:21:49 GMT
----- Original Message ----

> From: Ross Gardler <>
> To: "" <>
> Cc: "" <>
> Sent: Tue, August 17, 2010 4:14:02 AM
> Subject: Re: Radical revamp (was: an experiment)
> On 17 Aug 2010, at 03:53, Joe Schaefer <>  wrote:
> > It's optimized for success while making mentors potentially 
> > responsible for failure (iow a project with crappy mentors
> > will fail no matter  how much they grok apache).  Still
> > have doubts about escalating the  graduation decision to
> > the board.

> I don't see this proposal  replacing the IPMC. The project
> can turn there for help if they choose (eg our  mentors are absent).
> I see the IPMC role becoming more of a training  ground
> for mentors than a police force. 

Well isn't that what the IPMC is supposed to be right now?
Isn't that why we encourage IPMC members to participate in
discussions about our podlings?  How do we expect people
to learn without dialog and discussion- by reading our constantly-
in-need-of-attention docs?

I have said this several times in the past, and I'll say it
again: I'd bet over half of the Apache Membership could use
a refresher course on Apache release policy.  I've read enough
mistaken remarks about it both here and across several other
Apache lists, including from ex-board members, that I'm sure
I'd win that bet were someone to take me up on it.  That is
why I went through the trouble of improving the release management
docs here in the Incubator, but do those docs ever get read by mentors?

Getting back to your point, we're not supposed to be a police
force, and I can't help but think that some of the complaints
about people's authority being questioned here is actually a
useful exercise in Apache governance.  It's only the tone of
those remarks that is sometimes offputting IMO, not the content.
As Greg likes to say: "educate, don't bitch."  And I see those
moments as educational opportunities.

OTOH there has always been a sense of the mentors playing the role
of protecting their podlings from the wolves in the Incubator.
(Perhaps that's what you're driving at with your police force remarks.)
Hell at one point we even had documentation to that effect.
The idea behind it being that the IPMC guards the org's interests
where the mentors advocate for their projects, and in the balance
podlings learn something about that style of governance.  Unfortunately
that model doesn't appear anywhere else in the org, so those lessons
may not be particularly useful to them once they graduate.


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