From general-return-22669-apmail-incubator-general-archive=incubator.apache.org@incubator.apache.org Wed Aug 05 21:45:09 2009 Return-Path: Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@www.apache.org Received: (qmail 45750 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2009 21:45:07 -0000 Received: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (140.211.11.3) by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 5 Aug 2009 21:45:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 45170 invoked by uid 500); 5 Aug 2009 21:45:14 -0000 Delivered-To: apmail-incubator-general-archive@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 44995 invoked by uid 500); 5 Aug 2009 21:45:13 -0000 Mailing-List: contact general-help@incubator.apache.org; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Unsubscribe: List-Post: List-Id: Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org Delivered-To: mailing list general@incubator.apache.org Received: (qmail 44985 invoked by uid 99); 5 Aug 2009 21:45:13 -0000 Received: from athena.apache.org (HELO athena.apache.org) (140.211.11.136) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:45:13 +0000 X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.0 required=10.0 tests=SPF_PASS X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org Received-SPF: pass (athena.apache.org: domain of niall.pemberton@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.221 as permitted sender) Received: from [209.85.218.221] (HELO mail-bw0-f221.google.com) (209.85.218.221) by apache.org (qpsmtpd/0.29) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Aug 2009 21:45:05 +0000 Received: by bwz21 with SMTP id 21so354473bwz.12 for ; Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KpN1w6Pt8TXXBCISyIiXp7U74vCBeV0Pkj7WWK9ztwU=; b=C5NU+r7N88pOxatUUBK4ZIJE397u2BpWONS7rOqmFlqVSPtEq4FAxGF0KDnk6hkCgD P7LBIsjt8C5w0v5N0QKNVaSWIEDKxznRll0nbT9uvQ5up6WM4YUw+l9W4fXkERszOn5p TOO9haCJe8lWlDXsQzZRIPlE+GvU6e9LAHPjM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Vo3rYiXdtpVB0NdEgGi90gQPZQfq5G5u6WwrN8KNCbhQIPrmsYFQRAeYzv7BIR51cg 5lKFrdsmSkhRmS3REpekQw8UCdxpOOovK0cTZZrdv1DBB5YfP6/Q7NDzs/NL5Cu86asW fRHsiafWwjL198tedObvW4V/vuuW9IEHDtTt4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.101.80 with SMTP id b16mr1063480bko.151.1249508684004; Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <18034C03-6CFD-4E97-87BF-08BF2DCFCEA3@dslextreme.com> References: <510143ac0908040210o2a03876br5e3903b33792de49@mail.gmail.com> <18034C03-6CFD-4E97-87BF-08BF2DCFCEA3@dslextreme.com> Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 22:44:43 +0100 Message-ID: <55afdc850908051444y273e3ba0ha01f2aa3053a8b88@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: Diversity as an insurance policy (Was: [VOTE] Graduation of Apache Pivot) From: Niall Pemberton To: general@incubator.apache.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Checked: Checked by ClamAV on apache.org On Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 2:39 AM, Ralph Goers wrote: > > On Aug 4, 2009, at 2:10 AM, Jukka Zitting wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On Tue, Aug 4, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Bertrand >> Delacretaz wrote: >>> >>> In such a case, the key point is, do the people who write the code >>> listen to the community? >> >> That's certainly good, but IMHO not really the key point as it doesn't >> address the case when those people lose interest. A community that >> actually writes the code is much stronger than one that just helps key >> committers do that job. >> >> The River and PDFBox podlings that I'm currently mentoring are good >> examples of projects where community input was valued and taken into >> account by the key committers, but when they no longer had >> time/interest the projects essentially stopped as there was nobody to >> continue the work. PDFBox seems to have overcome that problem now and >> River is showing some positive signs, but both cases have required >> (and still require) quite a bit of mentoring to get them going again. >> >> Besides all the other good things diversity brings it's also an >> insurance policy for the project, and that's what I think the >> Incubator should be looking for as a graduation criteria. >> > > You are trying to predict the future. Good luck with that. > > The rules are there because we have a belief that meeting them will give the > project the best chance to succeed. I would argue that if this is your > measure you should take a look at Logback and SLF4J. The number of people > who have commit rights is very small (essentially 1 in the case of Logback). > But Ceki is a recognized expert in the field and is passionate about > logging. The odds of his abandoning the project are about equal to that of > him getting hit by a truck. OK we have a similar example here at the ASF - when Craig McC. left Apache Shale it slowly died - and AFAIK become the first project to join the Attic. So Ceki decides to become a Yak farmer in patagonia and maybe the same thing happens to SLF4J. I'm in two minds about Pivot's graduation - but I do believe that for its long term health it needs to get more people actively working on the code. Niall > But there are severl active participants in the > projects (myself included) and many more who stop by and ask questions. > > Using these projects as an example is perhaps not the best from a community > perspective because Ceki has no intention of running them like Apache > projects. But even if he did, by these standards the projects might never > make it out of the incubator. Even if those of us who would like them had > commit rights I can guarantee that 95% of the commits would still be Ceki's. > > From my perspective we should be evaluating projects based on whether they > are building a healthy Apache community where we have sufficient belief that > the project will be able to sustain itself without further mentoring. IMO, > trying to factor in "what ifs" about what will happen if certain committers > leave, unless they have shown signs that that is likely, is not a very good > indicator of success. Over the course of time a project is in the incubator > I would expect that mentors to have a good sense of what the level of > commitment is and would use that as part of their recommendation for > graduation. > > Ralph > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org