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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 19:45:28 -0700
From: Craig L Russell <Craig.Russell@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Commons Incubator
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On Apr 13, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

> Torsten Curdt wrote:
>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> That's code.  What about community, Torsten?  What is the  
>>> Community?  It
> has
>>> been the Apache Commons as a collective, not sub-projects.  Is  
>>> that to
>>> change?  We do not want Apache Commons to turn into an umbrella,  
>>> right?
>  We
>>> need to keep that as a single community managing libraries of common
>>> components.
>
>> Exactly! That's exactly why I think the Incubator does not work well
>> for small components. The Incubator is to build a community.
>
> Exactly.  We agree.
>
>> all it's the whole Commons that is the community.
>
> We agree, again.  :-)
>
>> So is it OK for commons to play mini Incubator with it's sandbox? I  
>> am
>> not sure I like this either.
>
> OK, why not?  Just asking.  You and I have having a civil  
> discussion.  :-)
>
>> Too often had the discussion at Commons whether this library needs to
>> go through incubation or not. I guess what I am trying to say is that
>> there is something in the middle we need to find a procedure for.
>
> OK, why don't you lay out some parameters?
>
> FWIW, *ALL* new code coming into the ASF does go through the  
> Incubator, but
> that is because we are the repository for IP clearance; the actual  
> clearance
> is done by the PMC clearing it.
>
>> Be it at Commons or at the Incubator. I don't care. It's just that
>> Commons is probably more likely to get these kind of contributions  
>> and
>> we need to find a procedure on how to deal with it. I think the idea
>> behind this thread was more to reach out to the Incubator experience
>> to find a proper way how to deal with such contributions.
>
> We have provisional communities, but not committers.  How is it  
> different if
> a new project comes into the Incubator and they have commit access  
> to that,
> versus it goes into Commons Sandbox, and they are granted karma for it
> there?  Is it just a matter of access control?  Is that what this  
> boils down
> to in the end?
>
>> Some projects are just too small to warrant the target of a TLP
>> or even a sub project
>
> We agree!  We have several projects here that I believe belong in  
> Commons!

For example, we have a great little project called Sanselan that is  
"code complete" but has not attracted a big enough community to become  
a TLP. Commons could be just the place for it.

The alternatives for Sanselan are indefinite incubation, expulsion  
from Apache or incorporation into another TLP.

Craig
>
>
>> Teaching people "The Apache Way" after they got commit access sounds
>> as bad as forcing the original authors to keep sending patches
>
> Torsten, my point is that when they land here, they do get commit  
> access,
> and then they learn the ASF away.  So, again, is this just about  
> access
> control to delineate what they can do?
>
>
> -----
>
>>>> My view, and I believe Torstens view is that to become a  
>>>> committer means
>>>> to join the dev lists, send in patches, be part of the community,  
>>>> gain
>>>> trust with the project members and then after a while be voted in  
>>>> as a
>>>> committer.
>>> Trust related to what?
>> Trust in that they understand how Apache works.
>
> We don't expect them to know that here, and we make them an ASF  
> Committer
> first.
>
>> [The new Committer might] also the person that could have potential  
>> code
>> ownership problems, could try to lead the project like they were used
>> to before and so on. I would not consider them more trustworthy in
>> that sense just because they brought the code.
>
> OK, perhaps we're getting somewhere ...
>
> Torsten, are you asking that we setup something like Incubator Commons
> Sandbox into which code goes, we make them Committers, the Mentors  
> (likely
> from Commons) work with them here, then when you are satisfied that  
> they get
> it, you (upon vote of the PMCs) svn move the code from Incubator  
> Commons
> Sandbox to Commons Sandbox?  Is this the idea?
>
>>> They do need to do is become indoctrinated in the community, and  
>>> if it
> is
>>> just a committer or few at a time into an entire community, Apache
> Commons
>>> ought to be able to handle that.
>
>> So we just hand out commit access and hope (or try to make them)
>> behave?
>
> LOL Well, that *is* what we do here, isn't it?  That part is just  
> access
> control.
>
> 	--- Noel
>
>
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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